Today's mass shooting in the US

[Rroff]

I would just give every single American an assault rifle, in fact make it mandatory and watch the hilarity ensue.

Switzerland almost does that - they don't have mass shooting as a regular thing. (Though occasionally it does lead to violence).

 

[timmeh]

Okay, I'm going to put forward a number of suggestions that I think might be useful. I don't know if any of these are already in force but let's see.

• Restrict known felons from buying guns - This is already law in some, if not all, states
• Restrict people with ties to terrorism from buying guns (not sure if feasible, could link to govt watchlists?) - Is it not crazy that this isn't already the law? This is common sense but was rejected by congress recently
• Restrict people with a history of mental health problems from owning guns (could still allow them to attend ranges just not own, and could be rescinded dependent on medical recommendation) - This was law, Trump reversed it in February 2017
• Restrict the second hand market to registered and licenced retailer who are required to comply with background checks
• Require safe storage of weaponry and prosecute people who lose their guns based on whether on not steps were taken to secure it.
• Licence gun ownerships, doesn't have to be massive, just register weaponry to named individuals
• Hefty penalties for unlicensed ownership or possessing a weapon for which you don't hold the licence.
• Unlicensed gun amnesties.
• Raise the minimum age to 21 but allow younger kids to use guns in association with a range or club.

No idea how many of these are already in force but look, some form of gun control and yet everybody (pretty much) still gets to carry a shoota' bruv.

Sadly none of that will ever get through.

You really should be able to be prosecuted if you don't store your guns properly. We've had so many people in my neighbourhood that have left their cars/trucks unlocked on their drive overnight and had their guns just sitting in the center console or glove box and they've been stolen. It's part of the gang initiations around here to steal a gun and they'll leave all kinds of expensive tools, phones, etc and just take the gun.

AR-15 style guns should have some sort of minimum price on them too. I've known people buy AR15s brand new for as little as $500 on Black Friday.

 

[wolfie138]

You're right, it's not really a straw man, it's false equivalence. How did you guys even get to this argument? What has banning guns because of their involvement in school shootings got to do with banning cars? Unless the argument is that if you wish to ban A because it is dangerous, then you must also ban BCDEFGHI because they are also potentially dangerous, which would be a logical fallacy.

I don't really care, it just seems a bit of a useless distraction.

well it depends on your definition of logical fallacy - as mentioned, cars/vehicles have now been proven umpteen times to be an effective killing weapon, and that's just talking about terrorists driving them into crowds, not addressing people who kill whilst texting/DUIing/speeding etc etc. It's causing hundreds if not thousands of deaths per year by the misuse of an item, as these shootings are. guns are no problem to anyone until someone unloads in a public place, cars are [generally] no problem until someone decides to have afew beers before getting behind a wheel, or driving double the speed limit, or aiming it at a grop outside a place or worship or whatever. so why consider banning one, and not the other? but yeah, bit of a divergence of topic so leave it be.

 

[mid_gen]

oh cool, you used the "straw man" thing to fit in w/ all the other people who have suddenly started using it. shame you used it incorrectly though

and no it's not impossible, it's just far less convenient, just people like you can't be bothered and fall back on trying to use "straw man" type things to avoid addressing the point that you don'tNEED a car, you just want it for your life to be easier.

You're accusing me of avoiding addressing the point?

Hint: this thread isn't about car ownership.

 

[VincentHanna]

There were 37,461 road deaths in the USA in 2016 and 38,000 deaths by firearms

Of which approx 2/3 were Suicides.

 

[Destination]

Out of interest, do you have the equivalent UK figures?

 

[Flibster]

Cars are primarily for transport.
Guns are solely for killing.

Can't see any correlation that would lead to.. Oh... you must ban cars too... Especially as you have to be licensed to drive.

 

[hornetstinger]

Cars are primarily for transport.
Guns are solely for killing.

Can't see any correlation that would lead to.. Oh... you must ban cars too... Especially as you have to be licensed to drive.

Nope. Paper targets are not people.

If I shoot a paper target am I sent to prison for murder?
Nope.

Guns can be used for killing, but they are used for hunting, artistic value, valuable collections, history involved with that gun (say if you have a revolver from US Marshall from 200 years ago) hobbyists club etc.

 

[sideways14a]

Are we still harping on at that idiotic gun/car argument... its stupid...

Like how about we all are allowed to carry handgrenades around, lets allow teachers to all have handgrenades as well.. you can go into wallmart and buy 20 handgrenades for 100 dollars... what a great idea, *** yeah merica...

Good idea eh?

 

[hornetstinger]

Are we still harping on at that idiotic gun/car argument... its stupid...

Like how about we all are allowed to carry handgrenades around, lets allow teachers to all have handgrenades as well.. you can go into wallmart and buy 20 handgrenades for 100 dollars... what a great idea, *** yeah merica...

Good idea eh?

A grenade is a explosive, disposable device. Show me a grenade classed as a collectable relic. And where there is fine artwork and detailng, skilled involved with woodwork, polishing, fine engraving.

 

[VincentHanna]

I was highlighting how stupid the comparison was.

Cars are indeed primarily for transport, 85% of Americans have a driving license

Guns are designed to kill people. Approx 35% of Americans own a gun

And guns still killed more people than cars...

 

[hornetstinger]

I was highlighting how stupid the comparison was.

Cars are indeed primarily for transport, 85% of Americans have a driving license

Guns are designed to kill people. Approx 35% of Americans own a gun

And guns still killed more people than cars...

By that logic 35% of Americans are murderers? And 100 million Americans should be shot by now?

And guns still killed more people than cars...

If you are talking about war

Tanks
Planes
Bombs
Ships
Torpedoes
Bows
Arrows
Swords
Spears
Maces
Sticks
Stones
Poison
Bare hands

 

[Washout]

Anyone drawing such a huge false equivalence of a car vs a gun must then also, by default, accept that gun laws should immediately change to make the ownership of one just as difficult as that of a vehicle and that failing to meet the minimum standards should have the weapons seized. Cheers, it's a step in the right direction.

 

[D.P.]

Nope. Paper targets are not people.

If I shoot a paper target am I sent to prison for murder?
Nope.

Explosives can be used for pretty explosions in empty fields, should explosives be readily available form Walmart?

Guns can be used for killing,

With far too high a frequency

but they are used for hunting,

Then guns can be restricted to rifles suitable for hunting, single-shot. And the sales of such rifles can be highly controlled to licensed hunters who under go thorough psychological evaluation.

artistic value, valuable collections, history involved with that gun (say if you have a revolver from US Marshall from 200 years ago) hobbyists club etc.

these guns can be deactivated.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Anyone drawing such a huge false equivalence of a car vs a gun must then also, by default, accept that gun laws should immediately change to make the ownership of one just as difficult as that of a vehicle and that failing to meet the minimum standards should have the weapons seized. Cheers, it's a step in the right direction.

This.

Of course we could take the alternative path towards insanity. The existence of dangerous things which lack regulation means that regulation should be abolished in its entirety.

 

[Flibster]

Nope. Paper targets are not people.

If I shoot a paper target am I sent to prison for murder?
Nope.

Guns can be used for killing, but they are used for hunting, artistic value, valuable collections, history involved with that gun (say if you have a revolver from US Marshall from 200 years ago) hobbyists club etc.

Target shooting... training for killing. Clay pigeon, clay rabbits for example. Or zombie targets, huns heads, silhouettes, even some of the metal targets are designed to simulate centre mass and head shots.

Hunting... umm...so, killing?

Artistic, collecting, historical... Fine. Deactivate them, block the barrel, prevent reactivation without significant expenditure.

I've had rifles in the past and once the house is sorted out, I will have some again. But, as UK, they'll be locked into a safe with the ammo and bolts in another elsewhere in the house.

 

[shorttricky]

By that logic 35% of Americans are murderers? And 100 million Americans should be shot by now?

I don't think "logic" means what you think it does

Guns can be used for killing, but they are used for hunting

Comment of the year

 

[kwerk]

If you're a grown adult who can't be trusted with a gun you shouldn't be walking around free in society. They should be in prison, secure mental facility, deported or executed.

Okay, I'm going to put forward a number of suggestions that I think might be useful. I don't know if any of these are already in force but let's see.

• Restrict known felons from buying guns
• Restrict people with ties to terrorism from buying guns (not sure if feasible, could link to govt watchlists?)
• Restrict people with a history of mental health problems from owning guns (could still allow them to attend ranges just not own, and could be rescinded dependent on medical recommendation)
• Restrict the second hand market to registered and licenced retailer who are required to comply with background checks
• Require safe storage of weaponry and prosecute people who lose their guns based on whether on not steps were taken to secure it.
• Licence gun ownerships, doesn't have to be massive, just register weaponry to named individuals
• Hefty penalties for unlicensed ownership or possessing a weapon for which you don't hold the licence.
• Unlicensed gun amnesties.
• Raise the minimum age to 21 but allow younger kids to use guns in association with a range or club.

No idea how many of these are already in force but look, some form of gun control and yet everybody (pretty much) still gets to carry a shoota' bruv.

 

[kwerk]

It does explicitly say "well regulated" though....

A well regulated militia not well regulated arms. The state militia is meant to be made up of private people with private arms. The state constitutions go in to more detail and some even mention hunting but most just mention defense of self and state.

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

 

[FortuitousFluke]

If you're a grown adult who can't be trusted with a gun you shouldn't be walking around free in society. They should be in prison, secure mental facility, deported or executed.

Is that the benchmark? People with suicidal tendencies, people with mental health conditions, people with temporary conditions that make them potentially a risk to themselves or others, your solution is to lock them up, send them away or kill them? Presumably the assessment would be one tick box "I don't trust them with a gun"

lolkwerk. Am I doing that right?