Today's mass shooting in the US

[Werewolf]

No its a completely valid point.

Also, in a stabbing. We blame the stabber. Not the knife.

In an arson case. We blame the person who started the fire. Not the fuel and match!

These could go on all day.

Stop trying to take Americans guns off them because of a few nuts, ffs.

The big difference between your examples is that a gun can/will kill a lot of people who have no chance to get away, and very easily for the attacker.

A car can't be used inside a building (normally) and you can dodge out of the way if you know it's coming, knives etc can't get many people and are very easy to avoid by staying out of arms reach (or even just on the other side of something like a pane of glass), bomb/explosives are either much harder to get hold of or require you have a fair bit of knowledge (not something you can grab from your dad's wardrobe because someone was nasty to you)
A gun is pretty much unique in how easy it is to get hold of (in the US), and how easily you can kill very large numbers of people with it as there is no way to outrun it, you can't just keep out of range, and even if you're behind a door or internal walls you're not safe as the rounds will pass through (so the only way it helps if by making it hard for the attacker to tell where you are, which I guess is better than nothing)

Guns have legitimate uses, but I can't see any reason for the average person in an urban environment to have unlimited to access them with large capacity magazines and zero checks.

It's insane that there are more restrictions in many US states on driving than shooting/gun ownership.

 

[VincentHanna]

Also I have no idea where you get the idea that you can just walk into a shop in the US and buy a gun without ID and a criminal background check. That is fake news if I've ever heard it and its just not the way it is over there.

Spoiler

. Alabama

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 30.6 (6th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:24.5 (18th highest)

2. Alaska

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: No

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 22.6 (11th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:47.0 (the highest)

3. Arkansas

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 28.9 (8th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:31.6 (8th highest)

4. Colorado

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 17.4 (23rd highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:18.3 (20th lowest)

5. Delaware

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 5.6 (3rd lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:14.4 (15th lowest)

6. Florida

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 16.1 (24th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:14.7 (16th lowest)

7. Georgia

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 22.1 (13th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:17.4 (18th lowest)

8. Idaho

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 37.0 (5th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:32.5 (6th highest)

9. Indiana

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 20.0 (17th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:20.7 (23rd lowest)

10. Kansas

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: No

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 16.0 (24th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:25.9 (16th highest)

11. Kentucky

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 18.7 (19th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:27.9 (10th highest)

12. Louisiana

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?:Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 22.8 (10th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:20.8 (24th lowest)

13. Maine

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: No

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 11.7 (13th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:24.2 (19th highest)

14. Mississippi

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 10.7 (10th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:26.7 (13th highest)

15. Missouri

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 12.5 (15th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:35.3 (5th highest)

16. Montana

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 16.0 (25th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:42.2 (3rd highest)

17. Nevada

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 29.4 (7th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:22.8 (23rd highest)

18. New Hampshire

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 21.8 (14th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:31.9 (7th highest)

19. New Mexico

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 56.3 (2nd highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:26.5 (15th highest)

20. North Dakota

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 14.2 (19th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:26.8 (12th highest)

21. Ohio

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 15.1 (20th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:20.3 (22nd lowest)

22. Oklahoma

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 19.9 (18th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:27.1 (11th highest)

23. Oregon

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 15.7 (21st lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:23.1 (20th highest)

24. Pennsylvania

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 22.3 (12th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:21.2 (25th lowest)

25. Rhode Island

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 4.8 (2nd lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:21.8 (25th highest)

26. South Carolina

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 18.2 (21st highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:21.9 (24th highest)

27. South Dakota

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 18.7 (20th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:31.2 (9th highest)

28. Tennessee

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 16.0 (23rd lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:26.6 (14th highest)

29. Texas

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 20.3 (16th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:19.4 (21st lowest)

30. Utah

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 37.9 (4th highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:17.9 (19th lowest)

31. Vermont

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: No

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 8.3 (8th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:25.9 (17th highest)

32. Virginia

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 41.5 (3rd highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:23.0 (21st highest)

33. Washington

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 12.5 (16th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:16.2 (17th lowest)

34. West Virginia

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 16.0 (22nd lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:40.6 (4th highest)

35. Wisconsin

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: Yes

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 11.2 (11th lowest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:22.9 (22nd highest)

36. Wyoming

> License, registration, or permit required to buy gun?: No

> Permit needed to carry handgun?: No

> Registered guns per 1,000 adults: 278.2 (the highest)

> Federal firearm licensees per 1,000 establishments:43.1 (2nd highest)

 

[CosmicClown]

Says the person who compares a box of matches to an assault rifle...

You're saying nothing there. I don't compare the two. You're missing the point entirely. Also;

''Last March, President Barack Obama was asked about guns during a press conference, and he responded by saying “It’s easier for you to buy a handgun and clips than it is for you to buy a fresh vegetable.” Ignoring for the moment that the president does not understand the difference between a clip and a magazine his claim is not true.

It is not easier to buy a gun than it is to buy a fresh vegetable, or any canned vegetable for that matter. Never in my life have I been required to fill out federal form 4473 and have the cashier run a background check on me before being allowed to buy an onion.''

 

[adolf hamster]

Common sense gun controls already exist.....

they do indeed, just sadly not in america....

 

[Uther]

You're saying nothing there. I don't compare the two. You're missing the point entirely. Also;

''Last March, President Barack Obama was asked about guns during a press conference, and he responded by saying “It’s easier for you to buy a handgun and clips than it is for you to buy a fresh vegetable.” Ignoring for the moment that the president does not understand the difference between a clip and a magazine his claim is not true.

It is not easier to buy a gun than it is to buy a fresh vegetable, or any canned vegetable for that matter. Never in my life have I been required to fill out federal form 4473 and have the cashier run a background check on me before being allowed to buy an onion.''

So hundreds of dead kids a year is a price worth paying to keep your gun? OK.

 

[Gaygle]

You're saying nothing there.

The irony!!

I don't compare the two. You're missing the point entirely. Also;

''Last March, President Barack Obama was asked about guns during a press conference, and he responded by saying “It’s easier for you to buy a handgun and clips than it is for you to buy a fresh vegetable.” Ignoring for the moment that the president does not understand the difference between a clip and a magazine his claim is not true.

It is not easier to buy a gun than it is to buy a fresh vegetable, or any canned vegetable for that matter. Never in my life have I been required to fill out federal form 4473 and have the cashier run a background check on me before being allowed to buy an onion.''

If I live in one of 31 states - I can go on to armslist.com/local Facebook selling sites and find a gun in my local area being sold privately with with zero, zilch, nada background checks. Some will even do next day delivery!

EDIT: I just typed in AR-15 into Armslist.com, and set my local area to Florida. 34 pages and 506 listings of just AR-15's I can buy from private individuals - most of which are $550.

EDIT 2: I was a bit disappointed that my for £390 ($550) I was only getting one or two spare mags thrown in. Luckily, someone else is selling 10 spare mags for $100. Phew. I can't do a school shooting without at least 10 mags on me! What happens if the police turn up right?! You reckon 10 mags of 30 rounds should be enough, or shall I bring the other two along just in case?

 

[Yas786]

You're saying nothing there. I don't compare the two. You're missing the point entirely. Also;

''Last March, President Barack Obama was asked about guns during a press conference, and he responded by saying “It’s easier for you to buy a handgun and clips than it is for you to buy a fresh vegetable.” Ignoring for the moment that the president does not understand the difference between a clip and a magazine his claim is not true.

It is not easier to buy a gun than it is to buy a fresh vegetable, or any canned vegetable for that matter. Never in my life have I been required to fill out federal form 4473 and have the cashier run a background check on me before being allowed to buy an onion.''

Your ignorance knows no bounds does it clown??

I have many friends in America and they all say it’s so so easy to get a gun over there. Easier to get a freaking gun than to get medicine .

Ok the example above about a vegetable isn’t quite correct but in a nutshell, it’s so easy to get hold of a gun legally or illegally.

 

[sideways14a]

The comparison with cars can go further, you have to pass a test to show your reasonably competent to drive a car, you need to be medically fit enough (ie eyesight ect), insurance is needed in case you do damage, if you do cause problems with your car you can easily be banned from having one, and the plod do like to check all the the previous points when they feel like it and pull you over.

So if you want to compare having a gun... you would have to have passed a competency check, you would have to be medically fit (ie mentally stable), you would need to hold insurance for each one which would help pay for the times folk do misuse them and if you do muck about and be a bit of a ****** then you will have the right to own a firearm removed - especially if the authorities find you posting crap on the web about doing a school.

 

[mid_gen]

you don't NEED a car, there are plenty alternatives. a car is probably the most convenient.

You've never been to the US I take it...

What do you think about those who collect medeval armour, maces, swords, shields, bows?

Do you think they're going on a rampage?

Have you ever actually owned and fired a gun?

Always had several guns at home. Did you have a point?

 

[Rroff]

So you wouldn't be willing to give up owning some aesthetically pleasing shiny, even if the price was a school full of dead children?

We can see that in this country you don't need to give up owning firearms to reduce deaths from shooting incidents to practically zero.

Matters like this need serious, objective, reasoned debate not knee jerk emotional rhetoric.

 

[mid_gen]

We can see that in this country you don't need to give up owning firearms to reduce deaths from shooting incidents to practically zero.

Matters like this need serious, objective, reasoned debate not knee jerk emotional rhetoric.

It needs to start with the pro-gun side accepting that some degree of regulation and inconvenience is a price they are willing to pay for reducing shooting deaths.

It doesn't seem like that is the case.

 

[Gaygle]

Matters like this need serious, objective, reasoned debate not knee jerk emotional rhetoric.

It's been debated to death and nothing has changed. It needs research.

Unfortunately, the NRA led and won a campaign in Congress to prevent the Centre for Disease Control from treating it as a public health issue and researching it, as they have done to reduce car accident fatalities, smoking, suicides, accidental falls etc etc

Pro gun people are so concerned about the results that they have actually banned even researching the role of firearms in deaths. They aren't even allowed to look too closely into the roles of gun ownership in suicides! Any research into gun ownership and it's causation with death has pretty much been banned.

 

[Rroff]

If I live in one of 31 states - I can go on to armslist.com/local Facebook selling sites and find a gun in my local area being sold privately with with zero, zilch, nada background checks. Some will even do next day delivery!

I think it was one of Hickoks videos - someone was prepared to drive near 200 miles to sell him a gun in a carpark same day, all legal, no checks.

 

[VincentHanna]

98% of NRA donations went to Republicans.

They spent $20 million on anti clinton adverts and $11 million on pro trump adverts.

It's absurd really.

 

[sideways14a]

I think it was one of Hickoks videos - someone was prepared to drive near 200 miles to sell him a gun in a carpark same day, all legal, no checks.

I quite like watching Hickoks videos, demolition ranch and all the others - but i still think that Yanks are off there heads with the way the perceive guns.

So much more could be done to limit the kinds of killings that go on while enthusiasts could using there weapons but the likes of the NRA and such will just not tolerate it - kids being shot up is a price to pay for there pleasure.

 

[Gaygle]

So much more could be done to limit the kinds of killings that go on while enthusiasts could using there weapons but the likes of the NRA and such will just not tolerate it - kids being shot up is a price to pay for there pleasure.

It is telling that the US government knows about terrorist sympathisers on ISIL websites, considers them a national security risk and can place them on a no-fly list.....but can't prevent them from going to a licenced gun shop, buying and legally holding a firearm because the NRA/Republican congress won't allow any basic controls of guns.

 

[shorttricky]

Terrorist use vehicles to ram into people. Would you give up your car?

No. But I would agree to get a license by proving who I am; to pass a test; that they could check my medical records for anything that might prevent me owning one, and to agree that my doctor could update them with new conditions that might affect my ability to control a vehicle; to maintain it regularly; tax it; insure it; adhere to safety standards; to document its sale; and to inform a centralised database of all this information that police could view whenever they needed to.

Guess how many of those apply to guns in the US.

Sport shooting
Target practice
Works of art
Collection. No different to collecting stamps or comic books.
History

Pretending to kill
Pretending to kill
Admire how to kill
Collect of killing things - and it is a bit different; I have thousands of comics, I'd be hard pushed to kill you with them. Maybe with a big winch, Wile E Coyote style?
Celebrate past killing

Guns have one purpose - killing. Simple as. To pretend otherwise is just sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

It doesn't matter anyway - the US made their choice when they decided the kids at Sandy Hook were an acceptable loss to keep unfettered, unregulated gun ownership.

 

[Rroff]

Pretending to kill
Pretending to kill
Admire how to kill
Collect of killing things - and it is a bit different; I have thousands of comics, I'd be hard pushed to kill you with them. Maybe with a big winch, Wile E Coyote style?
Celebrate past killing

Guns have one purpose - killing. Simple as. To pretend otherwise is just sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

It doesn't matter anyway - the US made their choice when they decided the kids at Sandy Hook were an acceptable loss to keep unfettered, unregulated gun ownership.

This is part of the reason why pro-gun people in the US won't enter into debate about it - some might not get it but for some there is satisfaction in target shooting especially mastering 500+ yard where air movement, temperatures, ballistics and potentially even Coriolis on extreme ranges are all in play without any thought as to killing things or pretending to kill things.

One contention I have there is that you don't need semi let alone full automatic to accomplish that.

 

[wolfie138]

You've never been to the US I take it...

you take it wrong

 

[FortuitousFluke]

Okay, I'm going to put forward a number of suggestions that I think might be useful. I don't know if any of these are already in force but let's see.

• Restrict known felons from buying guns
• Restrict people with ties to terrorism from buying guns (not sure if feasible, could link to govt watchlists?)
• Restrict people with a history of mental health problems from owning guns (could still allow them to attend ranges just not own, and could be rescinded dependent on medical recommendation)
• Restrict the second hand market to registered and licenced retailer who are required to comply with background checks
• Require safe storage of weaponry and prosecute people who lose their guns based on whether on not steps were taken to secure it.
• Licence gun ownerships, doesn't have to be massive, just register weaponry to named individuals
• Hefty penalties for unlicensed ownership or possessing a weapon for which you don't hold the licence.
• Unlicensed gun amnesties.
• Raise the minimum age to 21 but allow younger kids to use guns in association with a range or club.

No idea how many of these are already in force but look, some form of gun control and yet everybody (pretty much) still gets to carry a shoota' bruv.