Tower block fire - london

Maccapacca said:
New build sprinklers are £1000 an apartment. I don't know how sprinklers would have helped here, they are only meant to protect the escape route so they are no where near the facade and also with 120 odd apartment sprinklers going off if there would have been enough water pressure do to anything other than dribble out.

They are meant to extinguish one apartments fire that's why they go off with heat, the solder melts on the sprinkler head and it drops off releasing the water.

There's no storage of water in these buildings and the fresh water relies on booster pumps which rely on power.
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I think a lot of Sprinkler system work on their own pressure, usually a huge tank at the top of the block, the pressure from the water pressing down does the rest.
Ive never heard of a sprinkler system that relies on being plumed in as such.
 
FTM said:
thats the main question now....its all well and good the materials meeting specifications, but if its fitted incorrectly then its not going to perform as specified
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I think it is more down to whether the structure was considered as a whole. New cladding, old building, additional openings for new service runs, removal of asbestos related fire stops, closing old openings, updated regulations on fire safety etc. Was the structure wind modelled with the new profile? loads of questions.
 
nkata said:
I think it is more down to whether the structure was considered as a whole. New cladding, old building, additional openings for new service runs, removal of asbestos related fire stops, closing old openings, updated regulations on fire safety etc. Was the structure wind modelled with the new profile? loads of questions.
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yup..asbestos panels would have been right through internal ducting with firewalls etc...if these have not been replaced with suitable materials or just removed with no thought to replacement then its an avenue from top to bottom for smoke and flame to travel
 
cu3ed said:
I think a lot of Sprinkler system work on their own pressure, usually a huge tank at the top of the block, the pressure from the water pressing down does the rest.
Ive never heard of a sprinkler system that relies on being plumed in as such.
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Modern high rise usually have a break tank in the basement with pumps, very very little if any have roof tanks, most are sized to extinguish maybe one or two apartments, you'd soon run the tank dry and be relying on the mains pressure and the power of the pumps only, if like here every sprinkler was being used.
 
Maccapacca said:
Modern high rise usually have a break tank in the basement with pumps, very very little if any have roof tanks, most are sized to extinguish maybe one or two apartments, you'd soon run the tank dry and be relying on the mains pressure and the power of the pumps only if like here every sprinkler was being used.
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I guess it depends how it was started... perhaps a sprinkler system could have stopped it from spreading anywhere in the first place
 
Maccapacca said:
Modern high rise usually have a break tank in the basement with pumps, very very little if any have roof tanks, most are sized to extinguish maybe one or two apartments, you'd soon run the tank dry and be relying on the mains pressure and the power of the pumps only, if like here every sprinkler was being used.
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Surely it's more a question of whether had sprinklers been fitted, would they have extinguished the original fire before it could spread from the flat where it originated. Once it reached the outside of the building no sprinkler system would have been able to help.
 
You need to consider is that sprinklers are only fitted to protect escape routes, they don't cover 100% of say an apartment, they may not be needed in small apartments like studios, they may just be in the corridor by the front door or if the distance between the front door and the furthest point is in excess of X meters then one is required.
 
According to the reports the existing fire fighting equipment didn't work, so if sprinklers were fitted they would probably have been in disrepair also...
 
jeff83nz said:
Would you priotise this, the NHS, pay rises for those who haven't received one for 5 years in the public sector?

How would you pay for it?

Also if it turns out it was the external cladding, then surely the more effective option is to ensure outside of the building is fully fire proof as this appears to be where it all went wrong.
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Borrow, i won't discuss this too far (not entirely OT), but ultimately everything the government says is lie with respect to the deficit and debt.
 
Maccapacca said:
You need to consider is that sprinklers are only fitted to protect escape routes, they don't cover 100% of say an apartment, they may not be needed in small apartments like studios, they may just be in the corridor by the front door or if the distance between the front door and the furthest point is in excess of X meters then one is required.
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Is this correct? I was under the impression they were in each room.

Reason being the fire should be contained within the room it started in. Sprinklers also act independently from one another and are activated by heat - meaning in theory a fire that started in a room should be contained and then put out without much damage to any other rooms, maybe light water damage to either side and moderate water damage to a room below.

I work in insurance, use to do a lot of commercial property (albeit American) and the amount of claims you would have from hotels where an individual has hung an item of clothing up on a sprinkler head is mind boggling. The difference here might be that we are dealing with hotels and/ or America.
 
ubersonic said:
According to the reports the existing fire fighting equipment didn't work, so if sprinklers were fitted they would probably have been in disrepair also...
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this is true, they couldn't even keep the fire alarm in working order....

thing is, a sprinkler system wouldn't have helped the blaze at its full height, but preventing the blaze from getting far enough to do that maybe...

aren't there self contained sprinklers? basically a fire extinguisher with a sprinkler head mounted in the ceiling?
 
Theresa May has ordered a full public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire
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This is good an all but wasn't the recommendations which came out the last incident like this sat on for 4 years?
 
snips86x said:
This is good an all but wasn't the recommendations which came out the last incident like this sat on for 4 years?
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Her new chief of staff, no less.

This investigation will not catch anyone truly requiring a jail sentence and the public will support that in some unabated irony.
 
balky12 said:
Is this correct? I was under the impression they were in each room.

Reason being the fire should be contained within the room it started in. Sprinklers also act independently from one another and are activated by heat - meaning in theory a fire that started in a room should be contained and then put out without much damage to any other rooms, maybe light water damage to either side and moderate water damage to a room below.

I work in insurance, use to do a lot of commercial property (albeit American) and the amount of claims you would have from hotels where an individual has hung an item of clothing up on a sprinkler head is mind boggling. The difference here might be that we are dealing with hotels and/ or America.
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America has a much bigger thing about widespread use of sprinklers in apartment blocks, etc. this country has been relatively lax over it in my experience and only businesses I've seen widespread use to delay the fire room by room via such systems.
 
Thought that just came to mind, it's currently standard practice around here for any renovation to a council owned property (schools, flats, commercial) to include the removal of firefighting hoses as these are a safety taboo these days (HSE don't like that they cause people to stay and fight the fire instead of running). Has there been any word on if the renovations to the tower involved removing/disabling the hose reels?
 
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