Type R and VTEC owners

and?

The concept of that shouldn't confuse you.

Gordon Murray totally reviewed the attributes and expectation of the Mc F1 when he got into an NSX after previously using Italian exotica as benchmark vehicle. We even got one in here for benchmarking for CX-75.

You'll have to forgive my naivity not to be spoon fed marketing drivel but playing devils advocate on this one is a bit like the Blair Witch Project. You'll end up in a corner on your own staring at the wall.
 
I don't see what the problem is here?

Honda aren't going to come to market and say "this is nearly the best type R ever".

are you seriously saying [from somebody who works in the motor industry] that a car developed and released 25 years ago hasnt been surpassed in performance in some way?

marketing drivel is all anyone has to go off at the moment, but filtering out all the boasting in the video, the actual facts still sound fairly interesting.


is there something wrong here Jonny? your posting is fairly confrontational and I really don't understand why.
 
Best is subjective anyway.

It's probably best in terms of time round the 'ring and maybe even straight-line and top speed. Is it best in terms of fun? Probably not.

Is it best in terms of interior, comfort, build quality etc? I'd probably say yes.

I'd say this tips the lot in respects of a daily driver, but for a weekend car, the NSX is the obvious choice.

I assume this will be better than Integras too.
 
Honda probably spent more money in 1990 on the parts from suppliers to build the NSX than they will be offering the 2015 Civic R to customers for. The time doesnt really help anyone, particularly as crash and emission have tended to stump performance.

Im not being confrontational, I didn't plan to anyway. Just Im not going to be called out on discrediting Honda's claims on this Civic based on not actually driving an NSX, if I had it would be irrelevant as I havent driven the Civic yet either! Anything that walks away from NA has to be pretty special to compare.

Which is why I'm confused by Nathan's stance/hostility by calling that out when he neither can have driven both cars. Motor Industry is about products to consumers, hoefully under a finance package whilst dealing with the peaks and troughs of currency and material cost. Aerospace and military is where we will see the actual chronological march of technology and progress.

The dampers are going to have to be special to sort the low speed ride compliance out from the boggo Civic and Civics off this platform (8G torsion beam)
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Im not being confrontational, I didn't plan to anyway. Just Im not going to be called out on discrediting Honda's claims on this Civic based on not actually driving an NSX, if I had it would be irrelevant as I havent driven the Civic yet either! Anything that walks away from NA has to be pretty special to compare.
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I think what Nath was getting at was that the claim that it is better than an NSX is fairly bold but not unrealistic, and that the people being instantly dismissive of the claim probably have zero grounds for their opinion.

of course it makes sense that an unreleased car isnt a basis for any comparisons but I personally find it very bold for a manufacturer to make a statement like that in an official capacity, especially about such a revered icon as the NSX. regardless of what comes from the new CTR, its something to talk about and I am really interested to see what an OEM turbo setup on a VTEC engine feels like to drive.

Jonnycoupe said:
The dampers are going to have to be special to sort the low speed ride compliance out from the boggo Civic and Civics off this platform (8G torsion beam)
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I would assume they would be heavily uprated if they are targeting laptimes on the ring. The Megane 275 Trophy R that took the ring record recently had Ohlins DFV coilovers as part of its 'R' package. It makes sense to me that Honda would have to echo Renaultsport in this area by offering two specification levels.

a standard Road orientated type R, perhaps with type R suspension from showa or another manufacturer orientated OEM

then a nurburgring edition which is the spec focussed at taking the record they keep talking about.

I cant see a full road spec CTR being capable of beating a stripped megane with around the same performance figures. especially when that variant of the megane is the thick end of £40k
 
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=30949

Speaking with Honda UK's Civic product manager Leon Brannan before our chat with Yagi-san confirmed a sub-£30K starting price for the new (and still Swindon-built) Type R, though the upper of the two spec packages will push it over that boundary.
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seems my questions raised in the post before this one were answered this morning a little more.

I think 30k+ for a CTR is too much though.
 
Hopefully the ride is better than the 8th Gen, my s2000 on poly bushes rides better than my Type S!

I imagine this new Type R is going to be great on track but not on the real world.
 
What I meant by the dampers is that they are active and sit with the R+ button. The adaptive dampers on the Civic Tourer rear doesnt appear to have improved things massively and ultimatley you are governed by spring rate anyway.

Just hopefully we dont have to wait too far into 2015 before the press get into them.
 
This new CTR might end up having better stats on paper than the NSX and is a more modern car so will have more gadgets, perhaps its better in some ways. But honestly you don't even need to know what an NSX is to know that the CTR is in no way ever going to be as good as the NSX.

Anyone who knows their cars and knows Honda, will know that the NSX was a special one off halo car from an era when Honda where at their peak and making cars way ahead of their competition, people just don't know how good that car was, even so called Honda fans.

A shopping cart with a chavvy kit built in a plant who can't string a proper car together anymore, wont be a patch on the NSX, I can bet my toenails on that.
 
rjkoneill said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=30949



seems my questions raised in the post before this one were answered this morning a little more.

I think 30k+ for a CTR is too much though.
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Even close to £30k starting is too much for one IMO, it doesn't matter how good it is to drive the base car just isn't good enough in terms of interior or simply perceived class for any version to justify that kind of sticker price.

Maybe my mind will be changed if and when I actually get in one I guess
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Which is why I'm confused by Nathan's stance/hostility by calling that out when he neither can have driven both cars.
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I never said I had driven either car.

The point is, that nearly 25 years later it is entirely reasonable that Honda have built a family hot hatch to surpass it once halo car.

I feel that everyone has been jumping on a band wagon hating on the new civic when they should be praised for doing something different considering the last iteration of the Civic Type R wasn't a great improvement.


I also feel there are too many pairs of rose tinted glasses being used when viewing the NSX. If it was so great why has it taken this long to even get a new concept out?
 
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rodenal said:
Even close to £30k starting is too much for one IMO, it doesn't matter how good it is to drive the base car just isn't good enough in terms of interior or simply perceived class for any version to justify that kind of sticker price.
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I said this about 6 months ago and got flamed for it.

Golf R, m135i, Audi S3 etc. Then the cheaper Leon, Megane, and maybe Focus RS?

Be hard, even for a Honda fan to probably look past the alternatives.
 
NathWraith said:
I never said I had driven either car.

The point is, that nearly 25 years later it is entirely reasonable that Honda have built a family hot hatch to surpass it once halo car.

I feel that everyone has been jumping on a band wagon hating on the new civic when they should be praised for doing something different considering the last iteration of the Civic Type R wasn't a great improvement.


I also feel there are too many pairs of rose tinted glasses being used when viewing the NSX. If it was so great why has it taken this long to even get a new concept out?
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Are you smoking pot? The Civic is now doing nothing new, starting with a more limited awkward looking car than ever whilst the golf, Megan, focus and now Pulsar offer the fast turbo stuff at launch. CIVIC USP has gone.

Why has it taken so long to replace the NSX by the same logic? that is the icon of the Honda brand and indeed that segment. Same as defender..... That's taken so long as it's hard to replace good stuff. By the same notion this Civic has been out 4 years, why has it taken so long for a fast one to appear!?

The NSX wasn't a great car, it still it a defining benchmark of the MR border super car, forget the passed tense in sentences referring to it.
 
AndrewNR said:
I said this about 6 months ago and got flamed for it.

Golf R, m135i, Audi S3 etc. Then the cheaper Leon, Megane, and maybe Focus RS?

Be hard, even for a Honda fan to probably look past the alternatives.
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Need to wait and see really, its competition are the Leon, vrs, gti, megane, St - it can't and shouldn't be trying to compete even with the focus RS it doesn't sit at the same point in the model range and that's not a stigma that would be easy to break
 
NathWraith said:
I feel that everyone has been jumping on a band wagon hating on the new civic when they should be praised for doing something different considering the last iteration of the Civic Type R wasn't a great improvement.


I also feel there are too many pairs of rose tinted glasses being used when viewing the NSX. If it was so great why has it taken this long to even get a new concept out?
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Different? Its a copy of every other hatch back, Focus RS, Megan's, VXRs etc. Just stick a turbo four pot in the front and 'revo knuckle' the front suspension and then chase Nurburgring times. Sure it might be fast but it has no identity.

The rest of the car is pretty much a 8th Gen civic. At least the K20A gave the car an identity and a something different

I can see why you are getting excited though, has all the stick on tat and big spoiler you seem to like and can't see past that to the fundamental engineering beneath it.

As for the comment about NSX, I dont really know where to start. If it was easy to replicate they would have done it much sooner, the global economy took a massive dive in 2008 which put a hold on the concept replacement (although some made it to the racing scene as the Honda HSV-010 GT). The orginal NSX is a masterpiece, fully aluminium, the suspension arms are forged aluminium and the CofG is rediculously low. Dont confuse time with technical progress either, the Civic is a still a compromised platform even compared to a DC2.

However i do also think the NSX values are overpriced when an S2000 is 90% of the car for a fraction of the price. But then £30k+ for a Civic? The Focus RS seems to have got away with it as residuals have been strong - im not sure the Type R has the same cult following though.
 
rodenal said:
Need to wait and see really, its competition are the Leon, vrs, gti, megane, St - it can't and shouldn't be trying to compete even with the focus RS it doesn't sit at the same point in the model range and that's not a stigma that would be easy to break
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At 30k for the Civic the M135i, Golf R and S3 are not a million miles away in terms of £££ and they're all circa 300bhp shopping trolleys with 0-60 times of around 5 secs.

The M135i starts at about £30,800
The Golf R starts at about £29,900
The S3 starts at about £30,600

I guess the Civic will come with more kit as standard???

I think to be a valid choice it needs to be late 20's, around £28k to really contend with the Germans.
 
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