Tyre Nichols murder

NVP said:
They were assaulting him, he is more than legally justified to run. You're bordering on apologist territory with that statement.
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To respond to this point only as this was edited in after I posted previous reply;

At no point is what I posted even bordering on apologist territory, that's just all you and anyone elses view/perception on what I posted. This is only cold logic which doesn't care for feelings and doesn't take any sides to it, other than what the logic is about (that running is a bad idea as the US Police can interpret it how they like and they have the guns and manpower over you and so, the outcome of running almost always leads to escalation which usually is fatal in the US, when the "not resisting" is less likely to lead down this chain of events). And that remains, even you admit, to be correct.

And that is the only reason why I have been posting that the "do not resist the arrest" is a valid piece of advice. Nothing more.

If you have a crusade to go on (not you NVP in particular, but if you are on one, carry on), by all means continue do so. But don't mix an analysis of a particular statement that is accurate with something that has nothing to do with anything else on politcal sides.
 
not seeing the "if only he hadn't resisted arrest" again, it's an ongoing narrative, the decision, and running, cost him his life,
whether we will ever know what the events preceeding the stop were - probably immaterial (maybe they decided not to show dashcam for that reason), since the subsequent violence was indefensible,
the bodycams, at start, don't clearly communicate any level of physical resistance he put up,
if you've seen pictures of UK police removing someone from their car after a chase, it's similarly violent to what was initially shown in video, just no follow-on corollary.
 
Meddling-Monk said:
To respond to this point only as this was edited in after I posted previous reply;

At no point is what I posted even bordering on apologist territory, that's just all you and anyone elses view/perception on what I posted. This is only cold logic which doesn't care for feelings and doesn't take any sides to it, other than what the logic is about (that running is a bad idea as the US Police can interpret it how they like and they have the guns and manpower over you and so, the outcome of running almost always leads to escalation which usually is fatal in the US, when the "not resisting" is less likely to lead down this chain of events). And that remains, even you admit, to be correct.

And that is the only reason why I have been posting that the "do not resist the arrest" is a valid piece of advice. Nothing more.

If you have a crusade to go on (not you NVP in particular, but if you are on one, carry on), by all means continue do so. But don't mix an analysis of a particular statement that is accurate with something that has nothing to do with anything else on politcal sides.
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You can't win, 5 big dudes on you attacking you, what do you do? run. That's resisting arrest! US cops will then see that as a threat/and or being aggressive, which in then fuels them to be even more aggressive.

What a ****ed up situation.
 
bigup said:
By saying he resisted is the same as saying the beating was justified.

The guys life was in danger the moment he was pulled from the car, those cops were looking to beat him even before the stop.

Them cops most likely were trying to meet their quota of beating people up for that day.
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How does your brain even get to that point?
 
Huxton said:
You can't win, 5 big dudes on you attacking you, what do you do? run. That's resisting arrest! US cops will then see that as a threat/and or being aggressive, which in then fuels them to be even more aggressive.

What a ****ed up situation.
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It most definitely is a no win situation given that. And I think everyone can recognise how crud of a situation it is to be caught in. And how it shouldn't ever have been that situation in the first place.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
The inability to sue individual police officers should be removed and any damages shouldn't be paid by the tax payer but by the police union so all the police have to pay it. You'd soon see such behaviour change when it hits them all in the pocket and violent officers would be driven out from within. They should also raise the wages of the police so as to attract intelligent people and not just thugs who like to throw their weight around. It would still be far cheaper as the tax payers wouldn't have to cough up as the police wouldn't be getting sued all the time.
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That's not quite happening, but apparently it's becoming much harder for US police forces with a bad reputation, or without certain levels of guarantee about behaviour to get insurance at anything like "reasonable" rates.
A few years ago there used to be a lot of companies offering it, and often fighting each other to give the lowest quotes, now the number willing to even entertain it is dropping, and those that remain are starting to demand changes in how the worst forces respond (some of the changes are really basic, such as no untrained officers involved in high speed chases where the only known crime is speeding, especially chases in busy areas).
Obviously this won't affect the really big, rich forces such as NYPD where they get billions in funding and a few dozen multi million dollar settlements a year are nothing they can't fund themselves (or force the city to cover as part of a "vital budget increase"), but it does mean that some of the smaller ones are having to enter the 20th century in terms of behaviour.

It turns out Insurance actuaries are more powerful than most people imagine ;) (and it's not surprising they're taking action, their entire job is assessing risks, and US police are a terrible risk for insurance/claims).
 
So, watched a few of the videos

- Man justifiably pulled over for reckless driving
- Police act unprofessionally from get the go, inappropriate language and swearing
- Man is also actively resisting arrest, refuses to comply with instruction, though the Police also make it difficult for him to comply and continue acting inappropriate with swearing
- Police poorly handle this whole initial encounter, Police unable to get him into handcuffs for some reason despite outnumbering the smaller man; decide to deploy pepper spray and a taser, they pepper spray themselves as well as the suspect in the process
- Man gets up and runs away
- Police catch up with him, man continues to resist arrest, but Police continue using unprofessional language and excessive force, they pepper spray themselves again, then basically lose all control
- Man is kicked in the face while on the ground, held while hit with a baton, it seems they have no idea how to restrain someone and are pretty much a bunch of thugs in uniforms using tools like pepper spray, batons and tasers while not even trying to handcuff the man with some basic restraints

Police should be charged with murder, Police should be much better trained at how to restrain someone, they should not speak to the public in the manner they do - seems like they're on some weird power trip.
Man could have probably complied with Police instructions, he did resist arrest, but there wasn't justification for the level of violence used against him, which isn't legal or part of any Police training (a kick to the head?)

Race and firearms aren't really relevant here, this is just people acting like human garbage
 
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Roar87 said:
So, watched a few of the videos

- Man justifiably pulled over for reckless driving
- Police act unprofessionally from get the go, inappropriate language and swearing
- Man is also actively resisting arrest, refuses to comply with instruction, though the Police also make it difficult for him to comply and continue acting inappropriate with swearing
- Police poorly handle this whole initial encounter, Police unable to get him into handcuffs for some reason despite outnumbering the smaller man; decide to deploy pepper spray and a taser, they pepper spray themselves as well as the suspect in the process
- Man gets up and runs away
- Police catch up with him, man continues to resist arrest, but Police continue using unprofessional language and excessive force, they pepper spray themselves again, then basically lose all control
- Man is kicked in the face while on the ground, held while hit with a baton, it seems they have no idea how to restrain someone and are pretty much a bunch of thugs in uniforms using tools like pepper spray, batons and tasers while not even trying to handcuff the man with some basic restraints

Police should be charged with murder, Police should be much better trained at how to restrain someone, they should not speak to the public in the manner they do - seems like they're on some weird power trip.
Man could have probably complied with Police instructions, he did resist arrest, but there wasn't justification for the level of violence used against him, which isn't legal or part of any Police training (a kick to the head?)

Race and firearms aren't really relevant here, this is just people acting like human garbage
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Only question remains is, is it justified for him to "resist and flee" when such excessive force has been displayed immediately for a minor traffic infraction. I would say so, I'd be ******* petrified if that was me and thats how they treated me immediately.

He could not comply with the initial orders as the 3 officers were on top of him and trying to get him to move in different directions.
 
Dis86 said:
Meanwhile...in the real world...
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What you are saying is this is the way it is and it should remain the way it is.

Mason- said:
If I were getting pulled over by the cops I would do every thing they say and I would not run away from them because we all know the stupid **** American cops do. If you want to think of it as a probability then it’s something like this. Chance of you getting killed in a traffic stop by cops: 0.001%, if you are black: 0.01%, if you decide to run away from the cops when they are trying to detain you: 10%. There are decisions you can make that will increase or decrease the likelihood of death, try to do everything you can to decrease it.

I’m making the numbers up but you get the point. Don’t make things worse for yourself. You shouldn’t have to take a beating, you shouldn’t have to get barked at by overly aggressive and stupid cops, and this man did not deserve to be killed for what he did. But you should still do everything you could to not get yourself killed. So you should do everything they say and not run away.

I know… it shouldn’t be like this. It shouldn’t happen, it’s not right. But there’s no point being ‘right’ if you’re dead.
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So you get pulled over and the police are acting in a way that you fear they are going to beat you to death so you just comply? You say "yes sir" and allow them to kick the **** out of you? You are talking like its British police where the chances of this happening are effectively zero.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
What you are saying is this is the way it is and it should remain the way it is.



So you get pulled over and the police are acting in a way that you fear they are going to beat you to death so you just comply? You say "yes sir" and allow them to kick the **** out of you? You are talking like its British police where the chances of this happening are effectively zero.
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No, I've been very clear. This is the way it is. To think otherwise is naive or stupid. This is not the way it should be, but again, as I've already explained change is a difficult and slow process.
 
sidimmu said:
Only question remains is, is it justified for him to "resist and flee" when such excessive force has been displayed immediately for a minor traffic infraction. I would say so, I'd be ******* petrified if that was me and thats how they treated me immediately.

He could not comply with the initial orders as the 3 officers were on top of him and trying to get him to move in different directions.
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He was resisting from the outset, the Police were unprofessional from the outset. He should have complied with instructions; he could have done this despite the officers being unprofessional. This however does not justify the level of violence used against him. The Police are rightfully being charged with murder and should be jailed.

Colonel_Klinck said:
So you get pulled over and the police are acting in a way that you fear they are going to beat you to death so you just comply? You say "yes sir" and allow them to kick the **** out of you? You are talking like its British police where the chances of this happening are effectively zero.
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That isn't what happened
 
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Werewolf said:
That's not quite happening, but apparently it's becoming much harder for US police forces with a bad reputation, or without certain levels of guarantee about behaviour to get insurance at anything like "reasonable" rates.
A few years ago there used to be a lot of companies offering it, and often fighting each other to give the lowest quotes, now the number willing to even entertain it is dropping, and those that remain are starting to demand changes in how the worst forces respond (some of the changes are really basic, such as no untrained officers involved in high speed chases where the only known crime is speeding, especially chases in busy areas).
Obviously this won't affect the really big, rich forces such as NYPD where they get billions in funding and a few dozen multi million dollar settlements a year are nothing they can't fund themselves (or force the city to cover as part of a "vital budget increase"), but it does mean that some of the smaller ones are having to enter the 20th century in terms of behaviour.

It turns out Insurance actuaries are more powerful than most people imagine ;) (and it's not surprising they're taking action, their entire job is assessing risks, and US police are a terrible risk for insurance/claims).
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Not related but I remember reading a story of a city force, I can't remember the city now, where there was a long list of police officers who weren't allowed to testify in court because they had been found to have lied so many times while giving evidence. Yet they were still in the police. I found that staggering, any police officer that is found to have lied on the stand should be fired, indicted and prosecuted and never work in law enforcement anywhere again. That just isn't the case and they are protected from within and by their unions which in many cases are way too powerful. I hope that the insurance problem will bring about change but it seems to be endemic in US policing.
 
Roar87 said:
The Police are rightfully being charged with murder and should be jailed.
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As I said last night:

kindai said:
But its obvious they are all guilty as sin. Absolutely uncalled for escalation to multiple haymakers to the head and then what looks like a running kick into him.

All 5 of them will rot in jail for it. The question will be which one cuts a deal first.
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I would not be surprised if at least one of them ends up on the wrong end of some mob justice before it makes it to trial.
 
bigup said:
He never resisted.
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He literally resisted arrest. You might not like that, but by the legal definition of resisting arrest that is what he did.

Colonel_Klinck said:
I've watched the videos, the police were overly aggressive from the outset. He clearly feared them and was right to do so. If he'd got away he'd still be alive.
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He was also pulled over for reckless driving, the Police were aggressive and unprofessional, he resisted arrested. All of these things are true.
 
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Roar87 said:
He literally resisted arrest. You might not like that, but by the legal definition of resisting arrest that is what he did.



He was also pulled over for reckless driving, the Police were aggressive and unprofessional, he resisted arrested. All of these things are true.
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Police initially said Mr Nichols had been stopped on suspicion of reckless driving, which has not been substantiated by the local police force. So it appears they just pulled him for no confirmed reason.
 
booyaka said:
Police initially said Mr Nichols had been stopped on suspicion of reckless driving, which has not been substantiated by the local police force. So it appears they just pulled him for no confirmed reason.
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Well, they pulled him over for a reason, whether that is substantiated or not we don't know.
 
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