Uber lose battle in Supreme Court on drivers right

Don't see the problem in the first place.
If you don't like it, don't work for Uber. I disagree with people joining a company then complaining about the terms and conditions.

I think this will make the Uber prices jump up significantly.
 
Never had that happen to me, on the whole the service is night and day above traditional taxi firm offerings.

Experience before uber.

"Hi want to book taxi please"
"sorry we all booked up"

or

"Hi I want to book taxi please"
"yeah sure 5pm booked"
at 5.15pm
"hi where is my taxi"
"its on the way mate just round the corner"
at 5.30pm
"hi where is my taxi"
"almost there mate"
at 5.40pm taxi turns up.

With uber, I have never been refused a taxi, always one available on demand, I can track how near they are when coming to me, and I dont even have the hassle of making a phone call or paying in cash. Its light years ahead, and caught out legacy taxi services. Kind of like how the UK retail industry failed to react to amazon and now has mass closures.

Also dont get me started on black cabs, they charge literally triple the normal rate on their meters inside the vehicle.

As my reply above, most local firms use an App these days. I've never spoke to a taxi operator in years.
 
Don't see the problem in the first place.
If you don't like it, don't work for Uber. I disagree with people joining a company then complaining about the terms and conditions.

I think this will make the Uber prices jump up significantly.

Drivers I have chatted to always say they prefer it, they get the flexibility of when they work (their own boss), they can pick jobs near them, it was explained to me, that when customers order taxi at traditional firms and they get allocated a taxi other side of town, its not just the customers angry at that but also the drivers, they at the mercy of the controller.
 
Don't see the problem in the first place.
If you don't like it, don't work for Uber.

I think this will make the prices jump up significantly.

It throws a question over the whole business model. It's not a question of simply raising prices.

With a guaranteed minimum wage the issue is that there will be some lazy drivers. How do you manage that. You will have to tell everyone they must work X hours at particular times.

Otherwise you could just log on when there are no customers and get money for no work.

Uber will now have to ensure that there are an appropriate number of driver in the right locations at the right points in the day. Instead of letting drivers work out the best times and locations to work.
 
It throws a question over the whole business model. It's not a question of simply raising prices.

With a guaranteed minimum wage the issue is that there will be some lazy drivers. How do you manage that. You will have to tell everyone they must work X hours at particular times.

Otherwise you could just log on when there are no customers and get money for no work.

Yep this is why I said they may pull out of areas that are not very busy. There will be drivers who moaned who may now be out of work and wishing to turn back time.
 
As for paid holiday I never understood that either. It's a zero sum game. Uber will now just take a larger cut to pay you your holiday. Just like any other employer.

How do all other self employed workers take holiday? They don't work every day, they get to decide. For many of these drivers they also don't just use uber.
 
Don't see the problem in the first place.
If you don't like it, don't work for Uber. I disagree with people joining a company then complaining about the terms and conditions.

I think this will make the Uber prices jump up significantly.

If the implementation of basic employment rights result in a price hike then the price was never viable in the first place. Companies like Uber are an absolute scourge on the employment market. Expecting people to resign their position if they don't like the terms and conditions is a fundamental misunderstanding of why employment laws exist.

It's always cool when it's someone else being mistreated, but if your boss had to tap you on the shoulder...
 
If basic employment rights result in a price hike then the price was never viable in the first place. Companies like Uber are an absolute scourge on the employment market. Expecting people to resign their position if they don't like the terms and conditions is a fundamental misunderstanding of why employment laws exist.

It's always cool when it's someone else being mistreated, but if your boss had to tap you on the shoulder...

Minicabs have existed for decades. They are almost all on a self employed basis.

Your delivery drivers before the likes of deliveroo? Self employed.

Driving instructors even at big learning schools? Self employed.

Courier drivers? Most self employed.

Black Cab drivers? Self employed.

It sounds like all predominantly self employed industries are now gonna be changed forever because people have found a tech boogieman instead of looking at why those sectors are like that in the first place.

Even a lot of traditional self employed jobs like plumbers will move into a more centralised marketplace as everything becomes more tech focused.
 
If the implementation of basic employment rights result in a price hike then the price was never viable in the first place. Companies like Uber are an absolute scourge on the employment market. Expecting people to resign their position if they don't like the terms and conditions is a fundamental misunderstanding of why employment laws exist.

It's always cool when it's someone else being mistreated, but if your boss had to tap you on the shoulder...
If you don't like it then move company.
Uber was always based on the gig economy. You are self employed and could work whenever you wanted.
This really does sound like people want the best of being self employed with all the perks of being an employee.

I wonder if my self employed electrician is now thinking he deserves holiday pay.
 
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And I suspect that is true for most uber drivers.

You are right black cabs didn't have anything to do with the suit, but they definitely feel its a win and that they feel vindicated that uber are breaking the law which they've been claiming all along. There is even a class action claiming lost earnings that is happening at the moment.

If you read comments with these articles you'll often get the impression that only they are allowed to be self employed. Everyone else is dodging tax and operating illegally. Yet 99% of uber payments have always been digital and trackable. How long did it take black cabs to accept non-cash payments and why?

I take it that by non-cash jobs you meant credit and debit card rides, not corporate and private account jobs, which accounted for around 40% of my jobs when I was working.
I couldn’t pin it down to an exact year, but I would guesstimate that circa 2000, give or take, the Data Terminal in my taxi was switched for one with a credit card swipe facility.
Why did I want this?
It upped my trip offers considerably, plus prospective fares would then bypass cash only taxis on a rank, and come to mine, which had a large CC sign at the top of the windshield.
The Data Terminal would still offer me cash jobs, where someone has phoned for a taxi, but in common with a lot of drivers, I’d reject a lot of cash offers.
Too much uncertainty there, often you’d arrive, and be told that the customer had just gone, as some people would phone a couple of Black Cab circuits, AND a couple of minicab outfits, and use whoever arrived first.
Of course, that’s the customer's prerogative, but if I accepted a cash job and it was a no show, I got nothing, but if I’d stayed on a rank, eventually I’d be guaranteed a job.

Never had that happen to me, on the whole the service is night and day above traditional taxi firm offerings.

Experience before uber.

"Hi want to book taxi please"
"sorry we all booked up"

or

"Hi I want to book taxi please"
"yeah sure 5pm booked"
at 5.15pm
"hi where is my taxi"
"its on the way mate just round the corner"
at 5.30pm
"hi where is my taxi"
"almost there mate"
at 5.40pm taxi turns up.

With uber, I have never been refused a taxi, always one available on demand, I can track how near they are when coming to me, and I dont even have the hassle of making a phone call or paying in cash. Its light years ahead, and caught out legacy taxi services. Kind of like how the UK retail industry failed to react to amazon and now has mass closures.

Also dont get me started on black cabs, they charge literally triple the normal rate on their meters inside the vehicle.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you mean, but it seems like you’re saying that if the meter reads £5.00, the driver will charge you £15.00, I guess that what you’re trying to say is that Uber will do a job for £8.00, but a Black Cab will charge £24.00 for the same job.
Whichever way you mean it, you’re wasted on here, you could make a living writing fairy stories.
Obviously you don’t like Black Cabs, and prefer Uber or minicabs, that’s your privilege, knock yourself out.
 
What do you do for a living? Do you deserve holiday pay?

By pure coincidence, I'm actually an electrician and can assure you I think I deserve holiday pay.

But why does it make difference to you if self employed?

Say someone's income is £36,000. Why does it matter if that is £36,000 / 230 days instead of £36,000 / 260 days. Where the latter includes 30 days holiday paid. You won't get paid more for the same amount of work.

If you are self employed you even have the option of not taking days off (your choice) and instead earn £40600. Or is that the issue? People want that higher income and holiday as well.

As an employee I can in fact sell my holiday (if your company allows, probably with a limit). So I know me taking holiday actually costs me money. It isn't free, I am paying for it.
 
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But why does it make difference to you if self employed?

People who are actually self employed will build the holiday pay into their invoice and retain the cash to fund the time off to have a holiday. But that's the issue with companies like Uber; they aren't using the services of an independent self employed contractor, they are just pretending to do so in order to operate with a labour pool that is completely stripped of their employment rights. They are essentially bypassing employment law. That's the basis of the Supreme Court ruling, that the drivers aren't self employed they are "workers". The key aspects listed by the court really spell it out:

"Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn" - This means that the "self employed person" can't amend the rate to retain holiday pay because it's out of their control.

"Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them" - How many self employed electricians turn up to the job and get told how much the job will cost, what hours they will work, what shift pattern they will follow? In a normal self employed contractor relationship these things aren't dictated by the client, they are negotiated and agreed.

Say someone's income is £36,000. Why does it matter if that is £36,000 / 230 days instead of £36,000 / 260 days. Where the latter includes 30 days holiday paid. You won't get paid more for the same amount of work.

It's not solely a question of remuneration. It matters because that employee will be entitled to take that time off with no challenge from their employer. My holiday pay is paid to me every month pro rata and I take my holidays when I want so long as I give my employer enough notice in order that my time can be covered. We are actually only contracted to work 6 months per year (3 weeks on, 3 weeks off rota), so some people arrange the additional time off (effectively working 5 months in the year) and some are happy to retain the cash only. The point is, the choice is there.

If you are self employed you even have the option of not taking days off (your choice) and instead earn £40600. Or is that the issue? People want that higher income and holiday as well.

As stated above, that's not how Uber were operating which is why they are in breach of the law. Also, people should be protected from poor decisions like that and when Uber is an employer then they have a responsibility to monitor that by managing fatigue etc.. By pretending to be a third party they are bypassing those responsibilities. This goes much further than holiday pay.

As an employee I can in fact sell my holiday (if your company allows, probably with a limit). So I know me taking holiday actually costs me money. It isn't free, I am paying for it.

That's like saying not working overtime costs you money. Everyone requires a work/life balance and employment laws exist to protect that with minimum standards & entitlements. If you choose to give up that entitlement for financial gain then that should be your choice, however the law exists to protect you from your own poor decisions because let's be honest there are plenty of people who would work 365 days a year to make as much money as they can.
 
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Uber isn't forcing anyone to work long hours or every day. They won't challenge you if you take time off.

That's the whole point of jobs like this. You can work exactly how much you want to work when you want.

As an employee at work if I take time off at certain times it will be challenged and at times will require notice.

By turning people into employees, Uber will have to start dictating hours in order to justify paying everyone minimum wage in order to avoid getting abused.

You are suggesting uber drivers would increase the rate to cover holiday. The whole point is the rate they are getting is already supposed to cover holidays and other things that self employed people have to take into account already.

If I was self employed I don't go to the person who have stated their terms of contract and then tell them to increase the rate to cover holiday and pensions. I either accept the contract rate or don't if I think I have a better alternative. Uber isn't the only minicab subcontractor.

Employees are paid less than people who are hired on a contract. Employees have NI costs, pension costs, holiday costs and that comes out of the employees pockets. Businesses look at labour on a gross cost basis.
 
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@muon I'm simply going by the information that's been reported. The Uber employee didn't have those freedoms which is why Uber lost successive court challenges.

Example:

Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides...

...Looking at these and other factors, the court determined that drivers were in a position of subordination to Uber where the only way they could increase their earnings would be to work longer hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56123668

Uber want to have both the freedom of a third party booking agent and the close control of an employer. The court has ruled that it's unlawful.
 
Don't see the problem in the first place.
If you don't like it, don't work for Uber. I disagree with people joining a company then complaining about the terms and conditions.

I think this will make the Uber prices jump up significantly.
Companies aren't above the law.

They didn't ask for the law to be changed. They asked for the law to be upheld.

Uber were found to be breaking the law as it stands today.

So quite rightly Uber now have to fix their business practices to abide by the law. People can write their MPs and ask for the law to be changed to Uber's benefit, if they so desire.
 
Minicabs have existed for decades. They are almost all on a self employed basis.

Your delivery drivers before the likes of deliveroo? Self employed.

Driving instructors even at big learning schools? Self employed.

Courier drivers? Most self employed.

Black Cab drivers? Self employed.

It sounds like all predominantly self employed industries are now gonna be changed forever because people have found a tech boogieman instead of looking at why those sectors are like that in the first place.

Even a lot of traditional self employed jobs like plumbers will move into a more centralised marketplace as everything becomes more tech focused.
There are genuinely self employed people, then there are "self employed" people, who are in all ways under the control of the company they work for, and have to assume all the risk/costs of doing business, rather than the company they work for.

Like the "self employed" delivery drivers who have to make x drops a day, go where they're told, work the hours they're told, pay for their own van and related expenses, their own fuel, their own insurance... so the delivery company shareholders can have gold plated bath tubs.

Cry me a river that things might now get fairer in a lot of exploitative "gig economy" industries. About time too.
 
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