UEFA Euro 2016 Group B ** spoilers** (England, Slovakia, Russia, Wales)

[Trusty]

Because you've picked 2 players that couldn't be more unsuitable to playing in the wider roles of a diamond midfield. You have got to have runners in those positions - they need to be able to play box to box, at times end up in the right/left wing spot, get back and help their fullback, tuck in and support the holding midfielder. Rooney nor Wilshere can do that.

If you play Rooney and Wilshere either side of Dier then you have to play with wide players that will get up and down the pitch.

If you're going for a diamond then you need a play maker sitting deep (which Dier isn't) and then you have 2 players either side of him doing his dirty work (which Rooney and Wilshere aren't capable of doing).

Wilshere can certainly play that position. He's very adaptable, he was a defensive midfielder when he broke into the Arsenal side, remember his performance v Barca? Whether he's fit enough yet, only the England coaches will know. Rooney, yea, maybe he couldn't but like i said you could give Walker instructions. Dier would just play the same role, there's no where that says that the DM postion has to be the creative force, i'm not sure why you think that. He could just do what he's doing now, nothing would change. You could easily allow the system to be 4-1-3-2 without the ball with Lallana dropping into the central CM position with Wilshere and Rooney occupying the central/wing areas.

 

[BaZ87]

It's not a case of adaptability, it's a simple case of fitness. Wilshere and Rooney at their peak fitness aren't capable of getting about the pitch like you need to in that position. And what exactly are the instructions you're going to give your fullbacks that will help them when they're isolated 2 on 1 because Rooney/Wilshere can't get back to help them?

And an ordinary DM in a 2 man central midfield doesn't need to be a ball player but in a diamond it's key because your other 2 midfielders aren't always going to be in a position to pick the ball up and play. He's the 1 player that's going to be picking the ball up from the defence and building attacks - he has to be good on the ball.

If you want to play Wilshere, Rooney and Dier together in midfield then it can only be in a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-3-3. If you want to play 2 up front then you can't play that midfield, it would be plain lunacy to do so - which makes it possible with Hodgson.

 

[Trusty]

You don't know whether he's fit or not though, i know he hasn't player a lot of football this season but that could actually work for him, he'll be fresh. Instructions to Walker, you could tell him not go past the halfway line unless Rooney is behind him. Won't always work out like that, but it never does, you'll just plant a seed for him to be wary of it. The DM position is actually, in my view, a more defensive role in a diamond as the width is primarily created by the FB positions. There will always be a pass onto the FB,CB or a CM so the team can reorganise, it's not essential he can pass like Pirlo. Like i said, without the ball, Lallana would drop into the CM position to create a middle 3. You could easily stick Milner in there as well but Wilshere's left foot is pretty useful, would be a difficult decision to make if i was in charge

Very simple overview of how i view it in terms of possesion

 

[BaZ87]

I'm not sure why I'm debating this, it's pure madness.

Wilshere has never in his entire career shown that he has the athleticism or fitness to get around the pitch. And tell Walker to not cross the halfway line if Rooney is not behind him?

What happens when the oppo hit a switch of play and they've got a 2 on 1 vs Walker? Do you think Rooney or Wilshere have got the energy, having spent 70 minutes getting up and down the pitch, to get back and across to cover him? Have they ****. After 10 minutes they'd be exposed.

As useless as the Hodge is, even he can see that if you're playing Rooney as part of a 3 man midfield then you can't play a diamond with 2 central strikers. What you're suggesting is suicide.

The deepest player in a diamond is where your entire game goes through. He 100% has to be comfortable on the ball and capable of dictating play.

 

[Trusty]

I'm not sure why I'm debating this, it's pure madness.

Wilshere has never in his entire career shown that he has the athleticism or fitness to get around the pitch. And tell Walker to not cross the halfway line if Rooney is not behind him?

What happens when the oppo hit a switch of play and they've got a 2 on 1 vs Walker? Do you think Rooney or Wilshere have got the energy, having spent 70 minutes getting up and down the pitch, to get back and across to cover him? Have they ****. After 10 minutes they'd be exposed.

As useless as the Hodge is, even he can see that if you're playing Rooney as part of a 3 man midfield then you can't play a diamond with 2 central strikers. What you're suggesting is suicide.

The deepest player in a diamond is where your entire game goes through. He 100% has to be comfortable on the ball and capable of dictating play.

Yea, he does have the athleticism to cover ground actually, you should go have a look at distance covered stats for Arsenal, he puts in the same shift as the others. What happens when there a switch of play and Walker is 2v1? Well that's what Dier is for. Lol, it's really not suicide, we play a middle 3 at the moment don't we? Basically i'm saying we should be more attacking with a front 2 and i'm considered conservative on the FA courses Leicester won the PL this season with a middle 2 of Kante and Drinkwater, i'm not saying Wilshere and Rooney are going to put in the same distance as those guys but thats why you have an extra defensive minded player in there, Dier. And these small instructions is what in game management is about, you can't control players but you can tell players and make them aware of certain situations, what do you think Gary Neville is whispering in players ears when they get subbed on?

 

[drunkenmaster]

Wait you want to play a midfield two of Wilshere and Rooney... but play Dier as well to make it work?

The only thing Baz is wrong about is Wilshere, when his leg isn't broken he was fully capable of running up and down the pitch for 90 minutes without issue, though even if it was 70 mins then sub, it's better to have a great player on helping the team for 70 mins than not.

But if anything it should be a midfield two of Wilshere and Dier, playing maybe a 4-4-1-1 with Dier behind Kane or Vardy.

Tbh this team is very striker heavy, there isn't a way to do it but there isn't a player out of Vardy, Kane, Rashford and Sturridge I wouldn't want in the team. Sturridge is also better wide than people are suggesting, as is Vardy who while he played mostly in a 4-4-2 worked incredibly hard to close people down and ran back down the left wing plenty. But you just can't fit them all in, Kane upfront, Vardy/Sturridge on the wings, Alli behind Kane and Wilshere and Dier in midfield is... well it's defensively lacking for sure... but offensively, actually, that team could probably outscore just about anyone. We'd only be a little defensively suspect, more on the Sturridge side, when the other team is attacking, if they are attacking that team would be epic on the counter attack.

On current form I do think we could play Vardy left, Lallana right, Dier/Wilshere middle and Alli with Sturridge ahead of him, though we could use almost any of the two strikers there, Rashford and Kane, kane sturridge, rashford Sturridge.

 

[Trusty]

Wait you want to play a midfield two of Wilshere and Rooney... but play Dier as well to make it work?

Why is it a midfield 2? It's basically what we have now with 3 in the middle, seriously, people are thinking way too rigid. Rooney has played better than Ali so far offensively, Dier is playing a decent defensive game, Wilshere in for Ali and 2 up top. We don't have any proper wingers and we have decent attacking FB's, use a diamond to make use it. It's not like saying i want to play Rooney at CB and Wilshere in goal, lol.

Keep the same 4-3-3 then, put Wilshere in for Ali and Vardy in for Stirling, Sturridge for Kane, It's the same players basically but just set up differently haha

I just want a more attacking line up with 2 up top, we've controlled games in the middle but lacked an edge up top, providing an extra man in and around the box would help that i think.

Pick your best 11 players basically and find a system that works, that's what we should do for a tournament

 

[Rroff]

He won't change it for the Slovakia game though but who could blame him, playing with a fire a bit, if it doesn't work, he'll be nailed to the cross for trying it.

I dunno - I think he surprised most people by going all out early on to turn it around he might be encouraged by the result to do it again. For all the stick I give him his strategies are sound his failing has been not being able to see (partly due to stubbornness) when they aren't working and need switching up.

 

[FrankJH]

I dunno - I think he surprised most people by going all out early on to turn it around he might be encouraged by the result to do it again. For all the stick I give him his strategies are sound his failing has been not being able to see (partly due to stubbornness) when they aren't working and need switching up.

To be fair he had nothing to lose at that point because England were going out anyway.

Now we are top of the group (even nominally given how tough Slavakia game is likely to be vs how easy meat Wales should make of Russia) he could go all out for a bore draw to definitely qualify (even though we saw how badly that turned out after being 1 up vs Russia of all teams)

Really hope he goes all out with an attacking choice /formation but not sure Woy will

 

[robfosters]

If we win the group we face a third place team, so really should go for it.

 

[BaZ87]

Yea, he does have the athleticism to cover ground actually, you should go have a look at distance covered stats for Arsenal, he puts in the same shift as the others. What happens when there a switch of play and Walker is 2v1? Well that's what Dier is for. Lol, it's really not suicide, we play a middle 3 at the moment don't we? Basically i'm saying we should be more attacking with a front 2 and i'm considered conservative on the FA courses Leicester won the PL this season with a middle 2 of Kante and Drinkwater, i'm not saying Wilshere and Rooney are going to put in the same distance as those guys but thats why you have an extra defensive minded player in there, Dier. And these small instructions is what in game management is about, you can't control players but you can tell players and make them aware of certain situations, what do you think Gary Neville is whispering in players ears when they get subbed on?

I'm sorry, thinking you can play a 4-4-2 diamond with Dier, Wilshere and Rooney is beyond laughable as are some of the things you've come out with the try and justify it. Give Walker instructions and Gary Neville whispering in subs ears!

If a team is attacking down our left then Dier will naturally be to the left of centre. If the opposition then hit a crossfield pass towards our RB area, how the **** is Dier going to help our RB? No instructions you can give Walker and no matter what Gary Neville whispers in subs ears is going to help if Rooney/Wilshere haven't got the energy to run all day.

You want to play somebody that's far from great on the ball in a position where he'll be on the ball more than any other player on the pitch and you want to pick the 2 least athletic players in the squad in the most physically demanding roles in football. It's almost as if you've been playing too much football manager and you're trying to find a formation that can fit players in.

I'd love to see these Wilshere running stats btw. I don't believe for 1 minute that Wilshere has ever been a ground coverer. You'd need to find the number of sprints per game too though as that's the more important figure - playing wide in a diamond isn't about jogging around the centre circle, you need to be able to make high intensity runs up and down and side to side, constantly getting into position to help the attack down the right/left or cover your fullback or support your holding midfielder.

And I'm really sorry to say but your Leicester comparison only highlights your naivety. You cannot compare the roles of central midfielders in a flat 2 man central midfield to those in a diamond. Leicester had wide players which meant their cm's didn't have to (not regularly at least) support attacks in the wide areas or cover their fullbacks - that was the job of their wingers. If England play a 4-4-2 diamond then there are no natural wide midfielders which makes the role of the 2 players either side of the holding midfield much more physically demanding.

 

[smr]

Amazing result yesterday... when Vardy's goal went in a Yodel delivery driver turned up and saw me jumping around my living room shouting haha, he must have thought I was celebrating him turning up given how **** they are as a courier.

At half time, on whatsapp I said Kane off for Vardy, Sterling off for Sturridge - and that's what he went and did and it won us the game...!

Kane - rubbish, when on form he's decent yeah no question, but he looked jaded and tired these past few games, didn't look like posing a threat at all - and that free kick where he tried dipping it, you ain't ronaldo (or bale) mate.

Sterling - absolute primadonna fairy - does NOTHING for the team, I honestly can't think of one contribution he's made in an important game when it's mattered. So overrated it's unbelievable.

I thought Rooney was great yesterday, and against Russia, probably MOTM both games for me and I was wrong to slate Hodgson for choosing him - but given how he's performed in other major tournaments over the years (ie. not turning up)... he's really well suited to that midfield role bossing play around the pitch...

Alli - Drinkwater would have been so much better, DA is decent and obviously has talent but he didn't do it against Russia or Wales - times where Drinky would have dinked the ball over the top for Vardy to run on to (like Dier tried but put far too much weight on the ball)... Drinkwater's been delivering those passes to Vardy's feet to absolute intrinsic perfection all season.

Have to start with teh side which started the second half - I think Roy knows this is blatantly obvious as well, if he chooses kane and sterling again he knows he'll be out of a job... and we played with passion, hunger and desire in that second half - the best I've seen England play in a long long time.

 

[Gilly]

Dier behind Kane or Vardy.

You simply have to mean Alli there. If you want Dier played in the hole you've finally gone over the edge

 

[ChroniC]

I have to agree that when watching England, all I ever see is a pass followed by complete static movement. The player passing the ball looks almost relieved to have been unburdened by the chance he might make a mistake, followed with a complete unwillingness to move in a direction to open up space or creeate a 1 2, this always always leads to the defence building up a sufficient wall untill we either send it wildly into a unpopulated box to no one, or send it wide and lose it.
Time and time again we look unadventurous and outclassed by fast pace better passing sides.

 

[Gilly]

I hold my hands up. I said Rooney shouldn't even go, but if he does shouldn't start. He's been one of the better players in each game so far. I still want to see Vardy starting though. He wasn't used as an impact sub yesterday, he was just used as Vardy. I'm not sure what's going on with Kane but if he's training well and looking confident I'd keep him in, if not Sturridge and Vardy up top. This would be my starting team for Slokavia:

Alli and Rooney can swap over as and when the game allows, Lallana could easily come out for Milner. Walker has been dynamite so far and needs to be allowed to continue that. I'm still not convinced on Rose but I wouldn't change the back four at this point.

 

[smr]

I thought Rose played a blinder second half yesterday.

 

[McBain]

If we win the group we face a third place team, so really should go for it.

Yep plus it'll be Saturday evening vs Monday evening.

On current form I do think we could play Vardy left, Lallana right, Dier/Wilshere middle and Alli with Sturridge ahead of him, though we could use almost any of the two strikers there, Rashford and Kane, kane sturridge, rashford Sturridge.

What about Rooney?

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

I hold my hands up. I said Rooney shouldn't even go, but if he does shouldn't start. He's been one of the better players in each game so far. ...............

Aside from giving away a ridiculous free kick which led to the goal, yeah amazing player.

If you want to deal with Rooney just clip his heals/nudge and generally harass him. He will get himself flustered give away daft free kicks or even get himself sent off. The better teams/players in the tournament will know what to do with him sadly.

 

[FrankJH]

This would be my starting team for Slokavia:

.

+1 except start Sturridge instead of Kane and see how his fitness lasts in the 2nd half and if Kane (or Rashford) need to come on then fair enough

Aside from giving away a ridiculous free kick which led to the goal, yeah amazing player.

If you want to deal with Rooney just clip his heals/nudge and generally harass him. He will get himself flustered give away daft free kicks or even get himself sent off. The better teams/players in the tournament will know what to do with him sadly.

That far out you cant blame Rooney for the goal thats Hart's fault completely

He hasnt been sent off for that reason for god knows how long so that wont be happening

 

[Stretch]

Quite good analysis here imo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36553381

If you looked at the game yesterday evening, both Germany and Poland looked the polar opposite of England. Calm, compose, organised, systematic. England looked like it was the first time they'd ever played together, and the idea there was any meaningful system in the second half was a illusion at best.

No idea what's the plan against Slovakia will be. Kane is clearly our best striker on paper, but was ineffectual and substituted yesterday. Is he still a starter? Can Vardey start for England or is he a super-sub? Will Roy use the 4-5-1/4-3-3 system again? What about Sterling, where does Wilshere fit, and was Rashford only played out desperation.

I actually think that if Roy had just changed Vardey for Sterling yesterday, and played both Kane and Vardey upfront in a 4-4-2, we would have killed the game off a lot sooner. If anything, the pressured dropped after the Rashford substitution. Not that it's Rashford's fault, the team was just looked very unbalanced.

So many questions. Or maybe this is part of Roy's master plan to deceive the opposition.

This has to be the only sensible way forward. Although there's still a question mark over Vardey starting for England.