UEFA Euro 2016 Group B ** spoilers** (England, Slovakia, Russia, Wales)
- Thread starter Cosimo
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How many goals did Kane score against Russia and Wales again?
Correct. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing.
How many goals has Vardy scored for England? 4 goals in 5 shots. Uber impressive. PFA player of the year, won the Premier League, 24 league goals in the PL this season, yet some people question whether he should start for England. Added to the fact that Vardy is a whippet, he's far quicker than Kane, he uses space and runs into space much much better, he's just as accurate if not more accurate in front of goal.
Jeezus.
Correct. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing.
How many goals has Vardy scored for England? 4 goals in 5 shots. Uber impressive. PFA player of the year, won the Premier League, 24 league goals in the PL this season, yet some people question whether he should start for England. Added to the fact that Vardy is a whippet, he's far quicker than Kane, he uses space and runs into space much much better, he's just as accurate if not more accurate in front of goal.
Jeezus.
Sturridge is the most naturally gifted striker we have. He's had injury issues but right now is fit and not starting him is just silly especially when he just scored the winner. Vardy and Sturridge looked bright yesterday, start them against Slovakia and see how it goes.
Not many questions raised of Diers poor performance yesterday which is a surprise...I think he's getting away with it far too much. How many aimless, pointless balls did he loft over to absolutely no one ?
Not many questions raised of Diers poor performance yesterday which is a surprise...I think he's getting away with it far too much. How many aimless, pointless balls did he loft over to absolutely no one ?
Vardy was pretty ineffectual yesterday, but then again so was Kane. The reason why people question whether he should start is because the way England play does not suit him. How many times did Vardy get played in behind with a through-pass or ball over the top? I can only remember one poor attempt from Dier, no one else even looked up for Vardy when the ball was in the middle of the pitch.
There's more to his game than just running after long balls, but that is where he can cause real problems. I'd love to see him start against one of the better teams who keep possession of the ball and will allow us to hit them on the counter. It's quite tricky to play to Vardy's strengths when we are dominating possession and playing at a slow tempo.
I only got to see the highlights of the second half, but in the first half Dier looked like he was doing his job - which is more to read play and provide cover for the fullbacks and make an extra centre half when needed than it is to build play up. He's not a Pirlo there to control and dictate and start attacks.
Dier holding in a diamond? As omnomnom touches on, Dier isn't good enough on the ball to play there. If you want to play that formation then Wilshere has to play that role and then you make up for the lack of defensive ability with the likes of Milner, Henderson etc doing his donkey work.
And that's fine if you've got somebody doing the passing sat next to you but in a diamond he won't have that person sat next to him.
I don't want him on the ball, I just want him covering the defence and doing what he does for Spurs there.
With two up top I don't need a quarterback in front of the defence
the fullbacks are the link not the central areas.Baz, i've no idea where you've got this idea that the DM has to be a Pirlo type player from. He can be any type of player you want really depending on the other personal in the team. Attacking fullbacks? have a defensive minded DM. got defensive fullbacks? have a playmaking DM.
Them being the width is what makes them the link. They create space and/or are available to pick the ball up and run with it or receive it in the opponents half.
Are you saying that if Dier doesn't have someone next to him he's just going to play it into touch instead or something? We don't need him to be a playmaker.
Are you saying that if Dier doesn't have someone next to him he's just going to play it into touch instead or something? We don't need him to be a playmaker.
I'm sorry, thinking you can play a 4-4-2 diamond with Dier, Wilshere and Rooney is beyond laughable as are some of the things you've come out with the try and justify it. Give Walker instructions and Gary Neville whispering in subs ears!
If a team is attacking down our left then Dier will naturally be to the left of centre. If the opposition then hit a crossfield pass towards our RB area, how the **** is Dier going to help our RB? No instructions you can give Walker and no matter what Gary Neville whispers in subs ears is going to help if Rooney/Wilshere haven't got the energy to run all day.
You want to play somebody that's far from great on the ball in a position where he'll be on the ball more than any other player on the pitch and you want to pick the 2 least athletic players in the squad in the most physically demanding roles in football. It's almost as if you've been playing too much football manager and you're trying to find a formation that can fit players in.
I'd love to see these Wilshere running stats btw. I don't believe for 1 minute that Wilshere has ever been a ground coverer. You'd need to find the number of sprints per game too though as that's the more important figure - playing wide in a diamond isn't about jogging around the centre circle, you need to be able to make high intensity runs up and down and side to side, constantly getting into position to help the attack down the right/left or cover your fullback or support your holding midfielder.
And I'm really sorry to say but your Leicester comparison only highlights your naivety. You cannot compare the roles of central midfielders in a flat 2 man central midfield to those in a diamond. Leicester had wide players which meant their cm's didn't have to (not regularly at least) support attacks in the wide areas or cover their fullbacks - that was the job of their wingers. If England play a 4-4-2 diamond then there are no natural wide midfielders which makes the role of the 2 players either side of the holding midfield much more physically demanding.
Seriously, you've got in your head about these formations and you think it's the set position on the field and that's it, formations and players are ever evolving on the pitch.
4-4-2? is that 4-2-4 maybe? Oh...no natural wide players.
4-2-3-1? is that 4-1-4-1?
4-4-2 diamond? 4-3-1-2?
even above, i'm simplifying the formations above too much, hopefully you can see what i'm saying though, you've heard something or read something which makes you believe the DM needs to be Pirlo and the 2 CM's need be to Pogba's, they don't alright. It's how you as a team set your mentality up.. Nothing on the FA courses have they made a point about formations in that way. Your CM's do need to be fit guys but your making out like they cover 50% more ground of something, over the course of 90's mins it'll be very minimal. Anyway, sprints and distance covered are not important really, as Cruyff once said, "i don't care how far you run, it's where you run that matters."...something to that effect anyway
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I'm not sure what you mean by link? As in they're there to provide width/crosses etc? Ok but how do you get the ball into them? Our fullbacks aren't just going to have acres of space to play in - the opposition will have wide players that will be there to stop them.
The holding player and the 2 to his side are absolutely key to a diamond working - without them it's the ****est system going. Your fullbacks only get space because the oppositions wide players have to tuck in because you're outnumbering them in midfield. If you're not playing through the middle then there's no need for the oppostion to tuck players in and there's no space for your fullbacks.
You'll never convince me in a million years that a diamond can work properly without a decent ball player sitting. It's just not possible. He's literally central to the team - he's the one that will most often have space to get on the ball and play (a result of having extra men centrally) and if he's doing that effectively you can then start exploiting the opposition.
Dier is not good enough on the ball to thread passes into the number 10 neither is he good enough to hit the cross field passes to the fullbacks when the oppostions wide players tuck in side. All Dier could do is play a 10 yard pass to one of the midfielders to his side and by then the opportunity to get the ball into your number 10 or your fullback is gone.
The fullbacks link the play in that the defence and attack are not two separate distinct entities with them there.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you at all. I think Dier can easily play the anchor role in a diamond - in fact I think that's the reason he's in the squad.
To be fair if Drinkwater was there we could play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 too. He would've added a lot more versatility to the team.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you at all. I think Dier can easily play the anchor role in a diamond - in fact I think that's the reason he's in the squad.
Drinkwater would be ideal at the base of a diamond...
To be fair if Drinkwater was there we could play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 too. He would've added a lot more versatility to the team.
Not a clue what you're talking about actually.
I've not read or heard anything, I've watched football and it's really simple to understand. When you play a diamond you're naturally going to be short in wide midfield positions - somebody has to make up for that and it's the 2 either side of the holding player. You therefore have to pick players that are physically capable of getting around the pitch.
I watched Liverpool play it for half a season and even with the fittest most athletic player around in Henderson we still had to switch from a diamond to a 4-3-3 with wide players in games when the oppostion were on top in games because our fullbacks were getting targetted. Rooney and Wilshere would get run ragged. And a result of having runners either side of him, the holding player is the player thats going to be on the ball the most - to not play somebody that can pass the ball would therefore be mental.
Ok the link is fair enough but again you've got the question of getting the ball to them. Dier can't play those passes and if you're relying on your CB's playing it to Dier then to Rooney then to your fullbacks then you may as well scrap the formation because it will be too slow and easy to defend against.
I have Alli and Lallana in midfield in my diamond (can easily swap Milner in for Lallana too) who are more than capable of covering that sort of ground. It's the very reason I had Rooney in the hole instead of Alli.
Not convinced on Hendo or Wilshire's fitness and they aren't going to be match sharp either so a full 90 of this sort of play will be too much for them.
I'm still completely at a loss as to why Barkley is even there. He offers nothing at all that Rooney, Alli, Lallana, Henderson, Milner can't all do. It was such a stupid decision to take him and leave Drinkwater/Noble at home.
Not convinced on Hendo or Wilshire's fitness and they aren't going to be match sharp either so a full 90 of this sort of play will be too much for them.
I'm still completely at a loss as to why Barkley is even there. He offers nothing at all that Rooney, Alli, Lallana, Henderson, Milner can't all do. It was such a stupid decision to take him and leave Drinkwater/Noble at home.
I coach players and i see it in real time, not just from the TV. I don't see it as rigid as your making out, i think your putting way too much emphasis on the formation and thinking that the players don't move from those positions.
4-3-3
3 in the middle?
4-4-2 diamond
3 in the middle again, you can even have 4 in the middle if you want. The 2 cm's move to the wing area's, Dier steps up and the Attacking CM steps back to create a flat 4. It's how you want it as a manager, the CM's need to be fit obviously but they needed to be the fittest in any formation anyway.
A diamond is just simply a bit more attacking by putting 2 up front really. you can then coach the team in other areas of the pitch
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