Soldato
The point being, the less legal guns there are, the harder it is to get an illegal one.
Poll: UK Gun Laws
- Thread starter NVP
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How do you come to that conclusion?
Soldato
It’s not the legal registered guns that are used by criminals. Sure there are exceptions to this but the average nutter will use anything at his disposal, including motor vehicles if that’s his intention.
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Soldato
How many gun crimes were committed in the UK using legal, registered guns?
Does anybody have that information?
Does anybody have that information?
Soldato
Because legal guns become illegal guns. e.g. theft of guns from legal owners.
99.999999999% of guns were legal at some point. Hence, more legal guns available, then they become more readily available for illegal means. Pretty self explanatory.
Soldato
So erm.. where did they come from exactly?
Reducing legally owned guns will reduce access to them illegally somewhat but there are loads which were never legally owned - a good few years ago there was a lock-up garage raided near where I used to live where they found a shipment of weapons and ammo with thousands of rounds of ammo a couple of fully automatic AK pattern rifles as well as dodgy machine pistols, etc. etc. most of which IIRC they believe originated from the Balkans.
Associate
The number of guns needed to satisfy demand from criminals is relatively small and these can be provided by smuggling and illegal manufacturing in the UK. Obviously, there will be some cases of SGC/FAC holders going rogue and some cases of thefts of legally owned firearms too, but many legally owned firearms (like rifles) are less useful to criminals due to their size which prevents concealment. Legally owned shotguns with pump-action or semi-automatic capability are uncommon nowadays because they have to be held on a FAC. The remaining shotguns only have one or two cartridge capacity and would only be useful for career criminals after being sawn-off.
The sort of serious criminals who carry firearms and use them tend to favour pistols due to their ease of concealment. Over a third of firearms used in crimes are known to be pistols and yet they have been illegal here since 1997:
In 2020/21 shotguns were about 10% of the firearms used in crimes, imitation firearms were 24%, unidentified firearms were 17% and other firearms (including full-auto) were 11% (page 12 of this report).
Good question. The answer is not published in any of the official reports that I have found. I suspect that the only way to get the correct answer would be to do a Freedom of Information Request to the Home Office.
The Home Office and ACPO tend to only tell the media, Parliament and the public what they want them to know so we cannot do a proper critical analysis of their policies. For example, just before they made Brocock self-contained air-cartridge revolvers FAC firearms (back in 2004) ACPO told the media that a large percentage (I believe they said 80%) of the illegal pistols seized in London in 2001/2 were illegally converted Brococks and that they represented a very serious problem.
However, a shooting club did a Freedom of Information Request to ACPO and was eventually sent a document containing the raw data and they found out that there were just a handful (5 or 6, as I recall) Brococks that were converted into live firearms in the haul of seized firearms in London that year. ACPO had misleadingly given the percentage of Brococks (out of all air guns/blank-firers etc) that were converted into functional firearms recovered in London that year. They told that incorrect statistic to the national media and Parliament etc and it was repeated everywhere as a fact and never corrected!
I dunno the facts but most of the firearms incidents around where I live, where it is an actual firearm rather than imitation, are mentioned as being illegally owned, etc. shotguns being the most common.
When police have done amnesties around here the pictures show mostly old military weapons (often WW2) or other types which have either never been legal or been illegal for decades, etc.
Albeit deactivated in this case stuff like this turns up quite a bit https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/ak-47-assault-rifle-handed-3137109 surprisingly.
When police have done amnesties around here the pictures show mostly old military weapons (often WW2) or other types which have either never been legal or been illegal for decades, etc.
Albeit deactivated in this case stuff like this turns up quite a bit https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/ak-47-assault-rifle-handed-3137109 surprisingly.
Associate
If you live in a rural area then I suppose illegally owned shotguns would be the most common illegal firearm, but the figures quoted in that House of Commons Library report I linked to (above) say that shotguns only make up 10% of the (non-airgun) firearms used in crime in England and Wales in 2020/1. Poachers like them though and there may be quite a few old pre-1968 Firearms Act hand-me-down shotguns around in the countryside still.
Yes, but you have to take those publicity photos for Police firearms amnesties with a big grain of salt. They want to make people think that they took lots of dangerous guns off the street. However, I've often seen valuable obsolete calibre antique rifles/pistols among the guns handed in during gun amnesties. For example, during one gun amnesty in the North-East I saw that someone handed in a Martini-Henry .577/.450 long lever rifle (worth over £1,000) in excellent condition. Obsolete calibre antique firearms are perfectly legal to own without a FAC/SGC and cannot be fired (as the ammo is no longer available for them), but they are displayed prominently in the promotional pics for amnesties as if they are dangerous firearms. Perfectly legal World War 1 and 2 (deactivated) Webley revolvers, 9mm Lugers, .303 Lee-Enfield rifles, Sten guns and even Bren guns get handed in too. Housewives often bring in (legal) wall-hanger antique/deactivated firearms that belonged to male relatives but that they have always hated.
I take your point that sometimes very dangerous (functioning) firearms do turn up during Police gun amnesties, but let's face it, madmen, gangsters and drug-dealers are not going to go to a Police Station and hand their guns in.
Deactivated firearms are still perfectly legal to own. Although, they have made it harder to buy/transfer ownership of them. You have to inform the Police when you sell/buy one and it has to be deactivated to the latest specification before you can transfer it. That article reads like the Police were trying to scare people about guns in their communities. To say that, although it was deactivated, that AK-47 might still have been used "to frighten and threaten others" ignores the fact that any adult caught doing that with it would be looking at a mandatory minimum prison sentence of 5 years!
Quite a few have turned up which haven't been deactivated, just been awhile and I can't find links easily. It is surprising how many illegally owned weapons like that actually are around.
As per the rest of your post I do live in a rural area which skews things a bit. People around here are actually relatively well armed - most of the farmers have a reasonable selection of firearms - but firearms incidents involving those holding guns legally here is pretty much non-existent - the only firearm death I'm aware of is an old boy who offed himself with an old service revolver. The only recent firearms incident anywhere near here was with an illegally held gun.
Soldato
Yup little crime in general in rural areas.
Soldato
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The only gun crime that was reported that i know of around me was probably 30 years ago a few miles where i lived. an off duty copper shot his wife then turned gun on himself.
i would be lying if i said it was an illegal gun or a legal one, or even what kind of gun (I cant remember, and i was a teenager)................. but the bottom line is, someone like that would be more than capable of getting hold of a weapon if they had a mind to it.
I know a few farmers who shot over the heads of would be trespassers / burglars using a shotgun (not ideal but its not like there are scores or farmers shooting people - Tony Martin springs to mind, and that made nationwide news.......... I wont lie..... whilst what he did was wrong i have some sympathy for him TBH, the law completely let him down it should never have gotten to that point and its not like the burgerlars were not warned, again from memory there were signs all outside his property and it was the 6th time he had been burgled and the police told him due to location there was simply no chance to get to him in any helpful response time... They were travellers and the police were aware of them and the spate of crimes around them but how often do they actually get prosecuted?)
The only other one was a guy my dad used to work with (mentioned earlier in this thread) who was an unstable alcoholic did pull a loaded gun on his wife in a domestic incident (didnt shoot her but obviously this is terrible).... This is about the closest i can think of which supports the argument that no one should own legal weapons in the uk..... but then i fall back to the base line of............. he was a known alcoholic with driving ban and living with a son with a criminal record. he should NEVER have been allowed a gun anyway (and i am going back over 20 years so indeed probably wouldnt be now... even back then am not sure how he got away with it)
edit....actually a cache of automatic weapons were found in the forest next to where i live........ also must be 30 years ago.... they were for the IRA if memory serves (again so shows how rare this sort of thing is in England)... but either way these were not legal weapons..... i only put here because it is a gun crime.
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Soldato
As far as i am aware there are not constantly houses with FAC owners being targeted and burgled or the same about Gun shops in the news/media in the UK. I would probably say that most of these weapons are smuggled into the UK by gangs and criminals from areas such as Eastern Europe. Firearms incidents using a shotgun are relatively low compared to handguns, firearms incidents using a handgun are almost 4 times higher than incidents with shotguns however handguns have not been legal to own in the UK since Dunblane in 1996. Its also significantly more difficult to conceal a shotgun in public if you are a criminal than a handgun however it is significantly easier to smuggle into the country.
I would put money on it that most/all firearms incidents using illegal hand guns have been smuggled into the country by criminal gangs from probably Czech Republic, Albania, Bulgaria etc.
Here is the sauce btw:
Permabanned
Yes, I totally agree, the Ukraine situation will probably see a plethora of smuggled arms, large and small in the hands of gangsters soon.
I'll ketchup later, thanks.
Associate
1. Yes, why the hell do we need guns? So we can shoot a small target every now and again.
Epsom College head called relative before she was shot by husband
Police recover a firearm owned by George Pattison who officers believe killed his wife and daughter.www.bbc.co.uk
I'm sure this isn't the first case here where similar has happened.
Is there a case to be made for the removal of all guns from civilians?
Or perhaps if I word it another way, is there a legitimate case for a civilian to own a gun?
I can't see any argument that couldn't be resolved by a professional services who undergo tight control and yearly vetting etc.
Is there a case for guns to remain accessible to civilians?
2, No, except farmers who have the right to shotguns.
3. Yearly vetting does not pick up people who suddenly snap and shoot up a primary school, or a town centre or who murder their family in cold blood
Yes they may have try another way but at least they have a chance if they see him coming with a knife.
Bottom line is this country doesn't need guns because the wrong people always end up with them.
Associate
Number of homicides by shooting* in England and Wales from 1977 to 2021
1977 28 | 1987 78 | 1997 58 | 2006/07 58 | 2016/17 32
1978 35 | 1988 42 | 1997/98 52 | 2007/08 53 | 2017/18 27
1979 49 | 1989 38 | 1998/99 46 | 2008/09 39 | 2018/19 32
1980 17 | 1990 59 | 1999/00 61 | 2009/10 41 | 2019/20 30
1981 31 | 1991 50 | 2000/01 71 | 2010/11 60 | 2020/21 35
1982 46 | 1992 52 | 2001/02 96 | 2011/12 40
1983 39 | 1993 71 | 2002/03 77 | 2012/13 29
1984 61 | 1994 63 | 2003/04 67 | 2013/14 29
1985 44 | 1995 66 | 2004/05 73 | 2014/15 20
1986 47 | 1996 47 | 2005/06 50 | 2015/16 25
(Note: Date from 1977 to 2007 is recorded by years running from January to December. Data
from 2007 onwards is recorded by years running from April to March.)
*Figures include homicides with airguns and crossbows (rarely more than 1 or 2 a year).
Source: data from table A2 on page 24 of this report.
Notice that the numbers shot dead in the last 10 years are similar to the numbers in 1977-1983. This is despite the gun control laws here being severely tightened after the Hungerford massacre in 1987, after the Dunblane massacre in 1996 and after a gang-related drive-by in 2003 (with an illegal Mac-10). Centre-fire semi-automatic rifles were banned in 1988, breech-loading pistols were banned in 1997, shotgun ownership regulations have been tightened and a mandatory minimum prison sentence of 5 years was introduced for illegal possession of a firearm. Our gun control laws are now tougher than those in Russia!
However, you can see that about the same number of people are being shot dead every year than before many types of guns were completely banned. That's because most of the murders committed with firearms in the UK are done with illegal guns by career criminals. Over a third of guns used in crime are pistols and those have been illegal here since 1997. We don't need tougher gun control laws we just need to fund the Police adequately to enforce the current laws.
Soldato
They want to be more proactive about knife crime.
Bring stop & search back.
Bring stop & search back.
Soldato
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I would have no problem with that but as soon as that happened i imagine racial profiling complaints would ramp up again...... either that or it would go too much in the other direction and police would be too afraid to stop certain groups.
add to that........ you have to have police officers on patrol for that to work anyway.
Soldato
All true