Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

RoboCod · 13 Feb 2015 at 12:33

I love these pro Russian people, living it up in Western democracy.

Move!!!

ThestigGT999 · 13 Feb 2015 at 12:50

people still believe that Russia were the aggressors in 2008 when it was clearly Georgia bombing South Ossetia first

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/12/geor-d06.html

The Georgian assault on South Ossetia, launched August 7, involved the shelling of the main city of Tskhinvali followed by a ground invasion by 1,500 troops. The operation destroyed hundreds of civilian properties and claimed the lives of an estimated 160 South Ossetians and 48 Russian military personnel.

Despite this knowledge of Georgian military preparations, once the war began, US ambassador John Tefft simply relayed the claims of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili that Russia was the aggressor.

Zethor · 13 Feb 2015 at 12:54

ubersonic said:
Actually it was a prelude to a Russian led liberation of South Ossetia following the recent Georgian invasion of that state.

If South Ossetia is a state, is the Donetsk People's Republic a state too? Isn't it interesting how these pro Russian "states" seem to pop up in former soviet republics, unless of course they are part of NATO or in friendly terms with Russia? :rolleyes:

bs_hunter · 13 Feb 2015 at 13:09

Putin knows how difficult it is for the NATO allies to reach a consensus on military action. He pushed the button like the troll he is but did not anticipate the backlash of sanctions and economic realities that a more energy independent USA would have on the price of hydrocarbons. Losing Ukraine to the EU would be a big blow to the Russian Federation and Putin knows that it will lead to a domino effect of countries yearning for more political and economic opportunities that he had to send a message.

In war it really doesn't matter any more who started it. It simply matters on who wins and at what price.

This guy took a gamble and found out it was a very stupid one.

Zethor · 13 Feb 2015 at 13:18

bs_hunter said:
Putin knows how difficult it is for the NATO allies to reach a consensus on military action. He pushed the button like the troll he is but did not anticipate the backlash of sanctions and economic realities that a more energy independent USA would have on the price of hydrocarbons. Losing Ukraine to the EU would be a big blow to the Russian Federation and Putin knows that it will lead to a domino effect of countries yearning for more political and economic opportunities that he had to send a message.

In war it really doesn't matter any more who started it. It simply matters on who wins and at what price.

This guy took a gamble and found out it was a very stupid one.

Or he realised Ukraine is lost and decided to limit that loss by taking two strategic chunks of the country: Crimeea and the industrial area in the east.

Nutella33 · 13 Feb 2015 at 13:36

And there's no basis for NATO action. Ukraine isn't in NATO.
The countries who are also in NATO could act though... The EU as a whole could act as they are with sanctions but they won't until the USA changes position.

If this peace fails (and it has every chance of failing) I think it will create such a shift.

ubersonic · 13 Feb 2015 at 14:13

Zethor said:
If South Ossetia is a state, is the Donetsk People's Republic a state too? Isn't it interesting how these pro Russian "states" seem to pop up in former soviet republics, unless of course they are part of NATO or in friendly terms with Russia?

South Ossetia has been around for hundreds of years dude, after the fall of the USSR it declared it was now an independent state again and Georgia promptly invaded it, this led to a number of attempted Georgian invasions culminating in the recent 2008 one.

One of the reasons you get these types of messes is due to the way the USSR dealt with small states, basically it didn't want them so they became autonomous regions of the nearest soviet republic. I.E if RoI and NI were part of the USSR then NI would be downgraded to an autonomous region and integrated into RoI. After the fall of the USSR many of these autonomous regions wanted to become independent again whereas the country they had been assigned to wanted to keep them, obvious examples being South Ossetia and Crimea.

ubersonic · 13 Feb 2015 at 14:25

Wow, speaking of South Ossetian war lol, the following was a story showing images of Russian soldiers/tanks in Ukraine that had been given to US senators by Ukrainian MP's, I say was because it's now been updated to reflect the fact they are actually pictures of the 2008 SO war and Kiev were trying to pull a fast one over the US lmao.

http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...ssian-military-in-ukraine-arming-separatists/

Nutella33 · 13 Feb 2015 at 14:41

its really bizarre... I mean SO and georgia happened in august in a place where you can grow palm trees.

This is happening now and there's snow on the ground. Its pretty obvious they are not applicable.

Zethor · 13 Feb 2015 at 14:45

ubersonic said:
South Ossetia has been around for hundreds of years dude, after the fall of the USSR it declared it was now an independent state again and Georgia promptly invaded it, this led to a number of attempted Georgian invasions culminating in the recent 2008 one.

One of the reasons you get these types of messes is due to the way the USSR dealt with small states, basically it didn't want them so they became autonomous regions of the nearest soviet republic. I.E if RoI and NI were part of the USSR then NI would be downgraded to an autonomous region and integrated into RoI. After the fall of the USSR many of these autonomous regions wanted to become independent again whereas the country they had been assigned to wanted to keep them, obvious examples being South Ossetia and Crimea.

Fair enough, except you're not mentioning one very important detail. Namely, these regions are supported in their 'quest for independence' only when they aren't part of current Russian territory. Therefore South Ossetia was recognised as a state by Russia but that can't be said about North Ossetia or Chechnya, which also have hundreds of years of history. This means these problems don't occur due to dreams of self determination in various regions in the former Soviet Union, they actually are tools used by Russia to maintain parts of its former influence.

bs_hunter · 13 Feb 2015 at 15:54

Zethor said:
Or he realised Ukraine is lost and decided to limit that loss by taking two strategic chunks of the country: Crimeea and the industrial area in the east.

Could well be, though I suppose he was sending a message to other eastern European states seeking closer ties with the EU. "If you join the EU, Vlad will make it costly for you."

Dis86 · 13 Feb 2015 at 16:01

Zethor said:
Fair enough, except you're not mentioning one very important detail. Namely, these regions are supported in their 'quest for independence' only when they aren't part of current Russian territory. Therefore South Ossetia was recognised as a state by Russia but that can't be said about North Ossetia or Chechnya, which also have hundreds of years of history. This means these problems don't occur due to dreams of self determination in various regions in the former Soviet Union, they actually are tools used by Russia to maintain parts of its former influence.

Yeah, it's very one sided from them. Woe betide any region that wants independence from Russia!

jl10000 · 13 Feb 2015 at 17:19

bs_hunter said:
This guy took a gamble and found out it was a very stupid one.

You can also apply that to Willy Wonka and the Kiev regime. In April 2014 they started an 'anti terrorist operation against pro Russian rebels', which in normal language means they used the army to put down a rebellion in the East of Ukraine. Is a regime like that welcome in the EU? Especially when they cover up horrible crimes like the Odessa massacre?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27031318

Looking at the situation the Kiev regime is in, very dumb move.

Jokester · 13 Feb 2015 at 17:52

They let us into the EU *shrug*.

delta0 · 14 Feb 2015 at 17:42

Isn't there supposed to be a cease fire or has Putin lost control of his country? Why is there shelling by Russian forces (not separatist) of a Ukraine town? The last thing Russia needs is the US arming them, it would be goodbye all Russian and separatist from the region. It is inevitably going to happen if Russia ignores the ceasefire.

Uther · 14 Feb 2015 at 17:51

Ceasefire is not until midnight, so plenty of time to get some slaughtering in.

Rroff · 14 Feb 2015 at 18:03

delta0 said:
Isn't there supposed to be a cease fire or has Putin lost control of his country? Why is there shelling by Russian forces (not separatist) of a Ukraine town? The last thing Russia needs is the US arming them, it would be goodbye all Russian and separatist from the region. It is inevitably going to happen if Russia ignores the ceasefire.

Its not until 10pm UK time - I can't see it holding - more likely Putin agreed to it so as to use it as a justification for going in heavy when "Ukraine" breaks the agreement.

While not an unusual precaution Russia has been pulling back and reinforcing sizeable amounts of mechanised infantry in strategic locations on the border over the last couple of days.

smallzz · 14 Feb 2015 at 18:19

I can't see the Ceasfire holding long. Putin has a habit of lying and is said to be a big fan of Maskirovka which is basically deception.

He always comes across as wanting to 'help' the situation when you can tell he means to do the opposite.

As Vegetius once said

If you want peace, prepare for war.

jl10000 · 14 Feb 2015 at 18:20

Poroshenko has no control over the right sector, they have rejected the Minsk treaty and want to continue fighting. I doubt the rebels want to stop, apparently they have thousands of Ukrainian troops encircled in Donbass.

Nutella33 · 14 Feb 2015 at 19:27

jl10000 said:
Poroshenko has no control over the right sector, they have rejected the Minsk treaty and want to continue fighting. I doubt the rebels want to stop, apparently they have thousands of Ukrainian troops encircled in Donbass.

basically...yep. its the Debaltseve pocket and they are getting pummelled.

offensive at Shyrokyne as well (on the road to mariupol) with "enemy aircraft" being reported. which might actually be ukrainian...or the rebels have an airforce now, or the russians.

rebels apparently have drones that the Ukrainians dont have (as one as as the russian ones shot down earlier) >

and a US Ambassador for ukraine has just posted this from Debaltseve, saying they are confident they are not rebel units but russians >

Also russian convoy in russia heading to ukrainian border >

~edit~
Also appears that Putin. in posting the minsk agreement has acknowledged his forces in ukraine.

2. The withdrawal of all heavy weapons by both parties at equal distances in order to create a security zone width of at least 50 km from each other for artillery systems caliber of 100 mm or more, a security zone width of 70 km and a width for the MLRS 140 km for the MLRS "Tornado-S" "Hurricane," "Twister" and tactical missile systems "Point" ("point Y"):

"Tornado" being a brand new system for the russians that only entered service in 2012.