Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Isnt the main advantage of the t90 being its pasted in antiram paint and has supposedly decent EW capabilities. the actual tank itself isn't that amazing and thats why they've gone to Armata.

My understanding of it is that the T-90 is being phased out because that way they will only have T-72B2 and T-72B3 in service which makes it more homogenized for parts and stuff. The T-72's will then be replaced by the Armata.

India now has more T-90 than Russia after buying many off them, they expect to buy some of the soon to be retired ones too (production has ended) in addition to building/developing them themselves under license.
 
Not if we don't cheap out on the armour :S Challenger 2 with the fully upgraded kit will take a RPG 20+ hit. The Challenger 2 with the proper standards of maintenance and funding will handle anything the Russians have currently.

Wikipedia link I gave said:
The RPG-29 has since been supplemented by other rocket-propelled systems, such as the RPG-30 and RPG-32 "Hashim". The RPG-29's PG-29V tandem-charge warhead is one of the few warhead systems that has penetrated the hulls of Western composite-armored main battle tanks in active combat.
*shrug*
 
My understanding of it is that the T-90 is being phased out because that way they will only have T-72B2 and T-72B3 in service which makes it more homogenized for parts and stuff. The T-72's will then be replaced by the Armata.

Kinda what I was getting at. it was a bit of a unwanted baby. built to replace the t72 and t80 for cost reasons, low production run (for russia) and phased out in a decade to concentrate on modernisation (amarta)

It's taken out M1's (back and turret hits) and Merkava's (older models)

the CR2 hit was skipped along the floor and took the leg off the driver. the tank itself continued to operate and apparently drove away once the driver was swapped out. the belly section it hit was later upgraded.
 
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If only all the West used leopard 2. Mind you, the chally recorded the longest tank on tank hit ever, but that was probably down to the superior operators ;)
 
More Azov battalion Nazis:

I've used Western media sources, just to stop all the 'russian propaganda' whining.

This are the sort of scum fighting in Ukraine for the Junta:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis - Excerpt - 'Dmitry claimed not to be a Nazi, but waxed lyrical about Adolf Hitler as a military leader, and believes the Holocaust never happened'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html - Excerpt - 'The Azov men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28329329 - Excerpt - 'He says his comrades do not discuss politics much, though some of them may be "national socialists" and may wear swastikas'.

http://www.channel4.com/news/has-the-far-right-hijacked-ukraines-revolution - Excerpt - 'Reports of fighting near the southern port of Mariupol in recent days have stressed the involvement of the Azov Battalion, a volunteer militia linked to neo-Nazi groups. The group proudly displays the Wolfsangel symbols - a motif used by several SS groups in Nazi Germany.'
 
That's right because 1 battalion has far-right origins that means the whole armed forces and country must be too! Seriously Errol? Why are you acting surprised that Nationalists are passionate about defending their country, Azov was made up of volunteers!

I don't think you can be picky about who offers help when everyone else refuses to?
 
I've used Western media sources, just to stop all the 'russian propaganda' whining.
no-one here has denied the far right have a presence in Ukraine. They are just mocking the fact Russia seem to think its an excuse to invade considering the strength of the far right in Russia. They are also mocking your use of junta, as apart from clearly parroting terminology from the nationalist sources you are reading, its completely inaccurate. As per my previous post which you ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19434795
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/08/russia-race
http://muftah.org/ukraine-crisis-divides-russian-far-right/#.VOTLBNWsXDs

Or even an indepth look from within russia
http://www.sova-center.ru/en/xenophobia/reports-analyses/2014/03/d29236/

The results of 2013[1] are extremely disappointing for the Russian society as a whole, and only nationalists have reasons to feel optimistic.

The decline in street racist violence, which lasted from 2009 to 2012, evidently came to an end. The past year was characterized by a notable surge in ethnic violence, evident even to casual observers. A real persecution was unleashed against migrants from Central Asia and the Caucasus. People suffered from organized attacks as well as from casual xenophobic violence; weapons were used in some cases. In particular, there was an increase in the number of attacks on board of subway cars and suburban trains (“white cars”). In October, we witnessed unprecedented group raids against Tajikistan-bound trains. Combined with increasingly frequent semi-legal raids by ultra-right groups against migrants’ places of residence and employment, these events create an overall atmosphere of violence.

The number of local conflicts, which, with various degrees of success, were fueled and/or publicly presented as “ethnic” by the ultra-right increase in 2013. The most significant among such conflictswere the riots in Pugachev and Arzamas and the Moscow district of Biryulyovo.

A large-scale anti-migrant campaign was initiated by the authorities back in the spring and intensified in the summer in the wake of the Pugachev events and in connection with the electoral campaign.

As a result, the statistics on ethnic intolerance and support for nationalist slogans in the mainstream society grew to unprecedented levels.

The Slavic Union is the most active ultranationalist political association in Russia, and is alleged to have around 70,000 members throughout Russia, according to various police sources.

According to Sova, 96 people were murdered in 2008 in racist or neo-Nazi attacks, with another 419 beaten or wounded. (The number of deaths was 50 in 2004, 47 in 2005, 64 in 2006 and 86 in 2007.) Last month, another 12 people were murdered. Sova's research suggests that xenophobic prejudice has become mainstream, acceptable. And while most Russians don't support radical ideas in practice, there are around 2,000-3,000 young skinheads prepared to attack and kill migrants, he estimates. Russia's law enforcement agencies, tasked with the job of catching these boy killers, share the prejudices of Russia's general population. Typically, police officers ignore race attacks, or classify them with the lesser charge of hooliganism. Verkhovsky says: "Enforcement is very weak. These young skinheads don't feel fear of the police, since the risk of getting caught is small."

It's also seen as pretty hypocritical given it appears Putin is funding several far right groups in the EU.
 
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I don't think you can be picky about who offers help when everyone else refuses to?

Kiev has no control over these paramilitaries, they have been let loose in lawless war zones which are still populated by the sort of people that 'nationalists' like to rob, beat and murder. Mainly Russians and Jews. Of course Russia will use the problem for their own ends without really caring, but it isn't something that can be ignored.

no-one here has denied the far right have a presence in Ukraine. They are just mocking the fact Russia seem to think its an excuse to invade considering the strength of the far right in Russia.

As has been pointed out most countries have problems with the far right. The big difference is that Ukraine is very susceptible at the moment to far right ideology and violence. The problem for Willy wonka is that the nationalist battalions are the only ones who are motivated to fight!
 
Why was my post removed?

E2a. It showed the VK profile of a self confessed Nazi fighting alongside pro-Russian forces in Ukraine, with links to VK and further evidence from a ******** posting.

I'm confused as to why it was removed, perhaps instead of simply deleting a post a moderator might give an explanation of why to avoid further issues. No? Okay. Cheers. ;)
 
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As has been pointed out most countries have problems with the far right. The big difference is that Ukraine is very susceptible at the moment to far right ideology and violence. The problem for Willy wonka is that the nationalist battalions are the only ones who are motivated to fight!
the war is what is making Ukraine susceptible. And the war is being propagated and supported by Russia.

They are figuratively chucking a grenade over the garden wall then calling the police on the neighbour for the explosion.

Russia signing documents elsewhere
Russia and separatist Georgian authorities in the region of South Ossetia signed in Moscow today called "contract of the border."

As stated in this regard Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, the document is aimed, in particular, "dispel speculation" about plans to annex this Moscow breakaway region of Georgia that Russia considers its "independent state".

In Tbilisi, Georgian Foreign Minister Tamar Beruchashvili said that this "contract" is illegitimate and has no legal force.

A permanent head of the EU Delegation to Georgia Janos Herman said that this signature is not conducive to the peaceful resolution of conflict.

Russia is also now preparing to enter South Ossetia from another document, "treaty of alliance and integration", which, according to Georgia, Russia would mean de facto annexation of the separatist region.

A similar "contract" Russia earlier this month has concluded and a second breakaway region of Georgia, Abkhazia.
 
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Kiev has no control over these paramilitaries, they have been let loose in lawless war zones which are still populated by the sort of people that 'nationalists' like to rob, beat and murder. Mainly Russians and Jews. Of course Russia will use the problem for their own ends without really caring, but it isn't something that can be ignored.

Need a source for that assertion really, a bit like this (source) that I'm using to rubbish Russia's claims that Jews in Crimea needed their protection.

As has been pointed out most countries have problems with the far right. The big difference is that Ukraine is very susceptible at the moment to far right ideology and violence. The problem for Willy wonka is that the nationalist battalions are the only ones who are motivated to fight!

I'd suggest that with no representation in the Ukraine parliament (Svoborda didn't get the required 5% of the vote to enter parliament), it's somewhat less of a problem than you are suggesting (source). I'm certainly less concerned about the Nazis in Kiev than I am about the Nazi in the Kremlin.
 
Need a source for that assertion really, a bit like this (source) that I'm using to rubbish Russia's claims that Jews in Crimea needed their protection.

That source comes straight from Kiev, so hardly impartial or reliable. Just look at the photos sent to US congress as evidence of a Russian invasion of Ukraine! Of course the issue of the far right is something that Putin can use as a thin veneer of credibility for what they are doing, in the same way the US uses the 'defence of freedom and democracy' to go to war whenever it wants.

However Crimea is not a lawless war zone where you're putting extreme people in a extreme situation, just because Putin is taking advantage of the far right issue does not mean it isn't happening. Look at the Odessa massacre and how things turn very ugly when these ultra nationalists bump into Ukrainians who don't like the new government in Kiev. The far right ideology in Ukraine hates Russians and Poles the most, but of course you can't be far right without a dash of anti Semitism.

I'd suggest that with no representation in the Ukraine parliament (Svoborda didn't get the required 5% of the vote to enter parliament), it's somewhat less of a problem than you are suggesting (source). I'm certainly less concerned about the Nazis in Kiev than I am about the Nazi in the Kremlin.

Have you actually read that article?

"It is short-sighted and formalistic to conclude that the Ukrainian far right is insignificant based on the lack of electoral success"

Parties like svoborda don't worry about votes, they simply ejected various pro Russian parties out of the building :p

Look at men like Dmitry Yarosh, a key figure in the 2014 revolution. He is a straight up fascist who claims he commands up to 10,000 men and is actively fighting in the civil war. He also claims, despite the ceasefire, his men will continue fighting as Kiev does not control them.

He was voted into office last October. So whilst the amount of far right politicians may be small, they have a lot guns and a lot of nutters who support them. If the US want to arm Ukraine then the only people worth giving them to are the far right, as the regular Ukrainian army is useless.
 
Talking of Russian tanks - in Iraq on the `thunder run` - the only time the M1 came up against a `proper` T72 was at the airport - Iraq literally had 4 of them , fully equipped Russian spec T72`s , not the cheap export (ex polish when Russia abandoned them)


They came with kontakt-1 bricks.

4 tanks , and they took 8 hits from DU rounds to kill them , each .
 
That source comes straight from Kiev, so hardly impartial or reliable. Just look at the photos sent to US congress as evidence of a Russian invasion of Ukraine! Of course the issue of the far right is something that Putin can use as a thin veneer of credibility for what they are doing, in the same way the US uses the 'defence of freedom and democracy' to go to war whenever it wants.

However Crimea is not a lawless war zone where you're putting extreme people in a extreme situation, just because Putin is taking advantage of the far right issue does not mean it isn't happening. Look at the Odessa massacre and how things turn very ugly when these ultra nationalists bump into Ukrainians who don't like the new government in Kiev. The far right ideology in Ukraine hates Russians and Poles the most, but of course you can't be far right without a dash of anti Semitism.



Have you actually read that article?

"It is short-sighted and formalistic to conclude that the Ukrainian far right is insignificant based on the lack of electoral success"

Parties like svoborda don't worry about votes, they simply ejected various pro Russian parties out of the building :p

Look at men like Dmitry Yarosh, a key figure in the 2014 revolution. He is a straight up fascist who claims he commands up to 10,000 men and is actively fighting in the civil war. He also claims, despite the ceasefire, his men will continue fighting as Kiev does not control them.

He was voted into office last October. So whilst the amount of far right politicians may be small, they have a lot guns and a lot of nutters who support them. If the US want to arm Ukraine then the only people worth giving them to are the far right, as the regular Ukrainian army is useless.

Well that's why we give our sources, so they can be examined and criticised. I note you still haven't been able to provide a source to back up your claims. Until you do I won't bother arguing with you and dismiss your arguments as irrelevant.
 
Well that's why we give our sources, so they can be examined and criticised. I note you still haven't been able to provide a source to back up your claims. Until you do I won't bother arguing with you and dismiss your arguments as irrelevant.

Do I need a source to prove that the Ukranian far right does not like Russians and possibly Jews?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9181271/how-fascist-is-svoboda/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693

"We want Ukrainians to run the country - 70% of the parliament are Jews”

You're own source states that using percentages from the elections is "simplistic".

Pravy Sektor’s ideology borders on fascism, and it enjoys support only from Ukraine’s most hard-line nationalists, a group too small to secure them a place in parliament. But taking part in the democratic process is not part of Yarosh’s strategy

http://time.com/4493/ukraine-dmitri-yarosh-kiev/

As far as how many men he commands, what his men are doing and what plans they have it depends if you believe what he is claiming in interviews and on his facebook page. The one thing that is clear is that Poroshenko does not control him.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/21/...ctory-ukrainian-revolution-speaks-247987.html
 
supplying a sorce from 3 years ago isn't valid in the current political climate

also linking a comic *the spectator* doesn't lend any credibility to your claims

but since you are using such amazing sources let me give 2 for you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ons-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

and

http://www.interpretermag.com/russi...scow-in-ukraine-ukrainian-jewish-leader-says/

Staunton, August 30 – Iosif Zisels, the head of Vaad Ukrainy, the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine, says that neo-Nazi organizations from Russia” are taking an active role in the pro-Moscow forces in eastern Ukraine, a reflection of the fact that “Russia is infected with the ideas of revanchism, which is very closely connected with fascism.”


oh and a bonus just for you:

http://www.espnfc.com/russian-premi...shame;-spartak-moscow-fans-unfurl-nazi-banner

Russian football has been thrown into another scandal after a match between Spartak Moscow and Shinnik Yaroslavl on Wednesday was marred by crowd trouble which saw a Nazi flag unfurled

i


that's spartak Moscow fans....
 

The earlier versions of Chobham armour are potentially vulnerable to the updated 20+ RPGs but newer generations of it are much more resilient... if the tanks are fully kitted with it :S (and if also fully kitted with the latest electronics would be very robust against anything Russia has currently).

Talking of Russian tanks - in Iraq on the `thunder run` - the only time the M1 came up against a `proper` T72 was at the airport - Iraq literally had 4 of them , fully equipped Russian spec T72`s , not the cheap export (ex polish when Russia abandoned them)


They came with kontakt-1 bricks.

4 tanks , and they took 8 hits from DU rounds to kill them , each .

Would be interesting to know how the rifled main gun on the Challengers would have fared they annihilated the export spec T72s but not aware of any encounters with fully specced ones.
 
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The rise of the far right in 2012 is more valid than ever, do you think all those people just disappeared? Ukraine is in economic crisis and embroiled in a civil war involving Russia. That is the classic recipe for far right groups to gain support, as European history shows. The far right hold positions of power in Ukraine, one of them claims he commands 10,000 men.

What exactly has the far right in Russia, or any other country for that matter, got to do with the situation in Ukraine exactly? Are those Russian 'ultra nationalists' armed with machine guns, artillery and currently let loose in Kiev with no oversight from Moscow? No.

Who do you think was cracking skulls during the coup? The Ukrainian Green party? The reason the role of the far right is underplayed is that they are the ones doing the fighting in the East, which is a dangerous games as they could easily overthrow Porky.

Despite Yarosh being a scm bag, he is not wrong about Putin being a fascist. Glorious peoples revolution of Ukraine and their struggle for democracy and freedom against evil Russia!? All they got was some corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs and politicians who are friendly with the US rather than Putin. Oh and a big messy civil war.
 
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