Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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RxR said:
Thing is, if Russia gets weak, will China move to reclaim some old territory on Russias southern border?
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They don't really need to, Russia still has nukes and that's the only thing preventing others from invading (so long as Russia remains intact at least). China is pretty adept at exploiting natural resources in other countries (see Africa), they're quite capable of making Russia their bitch, sending over hordes of Chinese nationals, Chinese corporations etc.. to extract what they want. The great thing (for them) about the Russian system is all the corruption, if Russia is otherwise isolated internationally then the Chinese just need to make sure key people are taken care of then they'll be all over the place...
 
Kill_Phil said:
On the provision they don't have any nato bases in the country. Not sure how that works..
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Until recently both Sweden and Finland were pretty confident in their ability to defend themselves so perhaps all they want from NATO is the reassurance that if Russia did cross their borders they will have backup.
 
Puzzled said:
Until recently both Sweden and Finland were pretty confident in their ability to defend themselves so perhaps all they want from NATO is the reassurance that if Russia did cross their borders they will have backup.
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Not sure that is how a bilateral agreement works lol
 
Apparently three MiG-29 fighters belonging Azerbaijan were destroyed on 28th February 2022 by the Russian cruise missile strike at the Lviv State Aircraft Repair Plant; originally founded on October 15, 1939, belongs to Ukraine’s state-owned Ukroboronprom concern, which maintained and upgraded all Ukrainian Mig-29. For years, these have included Kazakhstan (MiG-27 and MiG-29) as well as Azerbaijan, Bangladesh and Sudan (all MiG- 29).

The Lviv plant was able to work on a range of MiG-21 versions – PF, PFM, R, M, MF, MT, bis and UM – as well as the MiG-23UB, MiG-27D and MiG-27M, in addition to the more modern MiG-29.

Additional Source: https://www.key.aero/article/mig-modernization-liviv

 
— Bloomberg (CET Time)

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Past 11hrs:
*Croatia’s Foreign Minister: Discussions With Turkey Over Finnish, Swedish NATO Membership Are on a Good Track, Hope for a Good Outcome
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Membership of Finland, Sweden Will Make NATO Much Stronger
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Germany Has Prepared Everything for a Quick Ratification of Finland’s, Sweden’s NATO Membership
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: We Need to Ensure Finland’s, Sweden’s Security During the Ratification Process for NATO Membership

*Lviv Regional Governor: Four Missile Strikes Hit Military Infrastructure in Yavoriv Area of Western Ukraine, Near Polish Border, Early Sunday

*Finland President Niinisto: Finland Will Apply for NATO Membership
*Finland President Niinisto Ready to Meet Turkey’s Erdogan Over NATO Membership Concerns — Turkish State Media Anadolu

*Turkish Foreign Minister Repeats Support for NATO Open-Door Policy, Says Solidarity Crucial
*Turkish Foreign Minister: Had Good Talks With Counterparts From Sweden, Finland, Conveyed Our Expectations
*Turkish Foreign Minister: Not Opposed to NATO Expansion but Opposed to Countries Supporting Terrorism
*Turkish Foreign Minister: To Deliberate on Sweden, Finland Suggestions to Alleviate Turkey’s Legitimate Concerns
*Turkish Foreign Minister: Turkey Is Not Threatening, Seeking Leverage at NATO but Rather Speaking Out On States’ Support for Terrorism
*Turkish Foreign Minister: Sweden, Finland Must Stop Supporting Terror, Give Security Guarantees, Lift Export Bans on Turkey

Past 5hrs:
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: If Finland and Sweden Decide to Apply for NATO Membership This Would Be a Historic Moment
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: Russia’s War in Ukraine Is Not Going As Moscow Had Planned, They Are Pulling Back From Kharkiv
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: Ukraine Can Win This War
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: We Must Continue to Step Up Our Military Support to Ukraine
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: NATO’s New Strategic Concept Will Be a Blueprint for an Age of Strategic Competition
*NATO’s Stoltenberg, On Turkey’s Concerns, Says I Am Confident That We Will Be Able to Find an Agreement on How to Move on Regarding the Membership Issue
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: Responding to Question on Possible Russian Retaliation to NATO Enlargement, We Are Following Very Closely What Russia Is Doing
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: We Will Try to Speed Up the Ratification Process As Much As Possible
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: NATO Will Look Into Ways to Provide Security Assurances for That Period, Including by Increasing NATO Presence in the Region
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: Turkey Has Made It Clear That Their Intention Is Not to Block Finland’s and Sweden’s NATO Membership
*NATO’s Stoltenberg: Ratification Will Take Some Time, but the Plan Is to Have a Faster Process Than We Have Seen Before

*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: We Must Not Let Down in Our Military Support for Ukraine, As Long As Ukraine Needs That Support for Self-Defence
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Sweden and Finland Are Not Only Our Partners and Friends, They Belong to Our European Family
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: NATO’s Doors Are Wide Open for Finland and Sweden
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Finland and Sweden Are Already NATO Members, Just Without a Membership Card so Far
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Germany Will Use a Fast-Track Procedure in Order to Ratify Finland’s and Sweden’s NATO Membership
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: NATO Has Agreed, Sweden and Finland, if You Are Ready, Then We Are Ready
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Russia Has Unilaterally Canceled the NATO Russia Founding Act

*Ukraine Foreign Minister Says He Met U.S. Secretary of State in Berlin: “More Weapons and Other Aid Is on the Way to Ukraine”
*Blinken: U.S. Will Continue Our Sanctions, Export Controls and Diplomatic Pressure on Russia for As Long As Is Necessary
*Blinken: U.S. Is Reopening Its Embassy in Kyiv, Will Resume Our Operations “Very Soon”
*Blinken: Will Look Ahead to Our Continuing Efforts to Fortify Our Force Posture on NATO’s Eastern Flank
*Blinken: Has Had a Chance to Speak in Berlin With Turkish Foreign Minister Cavusoglu
*Blinken: Does Not Want to Characterise Specifics on His Conversation but Says Heard Almost Across the Board Support for Finland and Sweden’s NATO Membership
*Blinken: There Is an Ongoing Conversation Between Sweden, Finland and Turkey

*Finland President Niinisto: My Most Recent Talk With Russia’s Putin on NATO Was “Calm and Cool” — CNN Interview
*Finland President Niinisto: Putin Told Finnish President NATO Bid Was a Mistake but Did Not Repeat Threat

Past 2hrs:
*U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mcconnell: Expects Procedural Vote Monday, Setting Up for Vote on $40 Billion Aid Bill for Ukraine on Wednesday
*Swedish Ruling Social Democrat Party in Favour of NATO Application
*Swedish PM Andersson: Best for Swedish Security if We Join NATO
*Swedish PM Andersson: Sweden Needs the Formal Security Guarantees That Come With Membership of NATO
*Swedish PM Andersson: If Sweden Were the Only Country in the Baltic That Was Not in NATO We Would Be in a Very Vulnerable Position
*Swedish PM Andersson: Membership in NATO Should Not Hinder Sweden’s Role in Promoting Nuclear Disarmament
*Swedish PM Andersson: Will Go to Parliament on Monday to Secure Broad Support for an Application to Join NATO
*Swedish PM Andersson: Good Chance That We Can Solve the Issue of Turkish Reservations Over Swedish Membership of NATO
*Swedish PM Andersson: A Number of Things Can Happen During a Ratification Process, We Need to Be Prepared to Deal With That
*Swedish PM Andersson: We Hope to Synchronize Membership Application As Much As Possible With Finland
 
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0007 said:
*German Foreign Minister Baerbock: Finland and Sweden Are Already NATO Members, Just Without a Membership Card so Far
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I wonder if the real value of membership for those two isn't deterrence, but NATO troops and airpower? Both are powerful enough militarily to deter invasion, but should that fail, better to have trained US and European troops than arming shopkeepers, librarians and farmers with shoulder-launched missiles, since you want those people doing civilian work, or returning to rebuild after. Doubly so given their populations of 5M (F) and 10M (S).

They looked at NATO's response to Ukraine rationally: munitions, surveillance, and maybe some special forces. However, no no-fly zones or boots on the ground that would substantially turn the tide. NATO would be happy to arm an external member being invaded by Russia, but manpower or anything escalatory requires membership, nay, demands it to keep the alliance viable.

If you look at the Soviet war-plan 7 Days to the Rhine, the USSR was all-too happy to run over neutral Switzerland. Even if Sweden and Finland didn't work so closely with NATO, neutrality was no guarantee of security.

Also, I had no idea Turkey had issues with them joining.
 
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Rockbox said:
I wonder if the real value of membership for those two isn't deterrence, but NATO troops and airpower? Both are powerful enough militarily to deter invasion, but should that fail, better to have trained US and European troops than arming shopkeepers, librarians and farmers with shoulder-launched missiles, since you want those people doing civilian work, or returning to rebuild after. Doubly so given their populations of 5M (F) and 10M (S).
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From what I remember of Sweden and Finland they both have mandatory conscription. It used to be of all men. But I know many women who do it as well.

I wish UK had something like that too, otherwise if we are ever invaded it'll be like a Dad's Army episode... "don't panic!!!".
 
German Foreign Minister Baerbock: We Must Not Let Down in Our Military Support for Ukraine, As Long As Ukraine Needs That Support for Self-Defence
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Does ‘self defence’ include taking back Crimea? Germans gonna German, shifty and as reluctant as ever.
 
BowdonUK said:
From what I remember of Sweden and Finland they both have mandatory conscription. It used to be of all men. But I know many women who do it as well.

I wish UK had something like that too, otherwise if we are ever invaded it'll be like a Dad's Army episode... "don't panic!!!".
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Any country in the process of invading us would find themselves on the wrong end of several nuclear warheads, so if we're ever genuinely threatened by invasion then it'd be another nuclear power and we'd already be nearly completely destroyed anyway.

I'd worry about our distinct lack of nuclear-resistant infrastructure before anything else because it would all be entirely cosmetic and symbolic without it.
 
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StriderX said:
Any country in the process of invading us would find themselves on the wrong end of several nuclear warheads.
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We arnt Russia. I very very much doubt we'd consider even threatening the use of nuclear weapons unless the country attacking us threatened us with the use of them first. We hold a nuclear weapons as detterent/insurance policy as it were... I do not see a situation where we would resort to use of nuclear attack other than in retaliation or pre-emptive strike in response to a nuclear attack on UK soil. Not saying that there is not a possibility that our posture and doctrine wont change in future with a changing world and fast evolving threats but I couldnt see our forces or our government using Nukes in a situation where they arnt in play against us.
 
Minusorange said:
It'll be worse most will refuse to actually defend the country because they'd rather not have the inconvenience in their life
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I would contend that barely anyone defends their country outright, they defend themselves and their families as would be the natural consequence of a threat to their continued existence.

If people wanted others to value collective responsibility then perhaps the last 50 years shouldn't have been voted for and then pretending to ignore the consequences as the fault of everyone else around them.
 
Sankari said:
Have the Swedes made that an official condition of their NATO membership? I know that the Finns have said they will not impose any conditions.
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Not officially, just strongly oppose at this stage but can't see that standing up; sure others will be more knowledgeable than I am on the matter
 
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