Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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We arnt Russia. I very very much doubt we'd consider even threatening the use of nuclear weapons unless the country attacking us threatened us with the use of them first. We hold a nuclear weapons as detterent/insurance policy as it were... I do not see a situation where we would resort to use of nuclear attack other than in retaliation or pre-emptive strike in response to a nuclear attack on UK soil. Not saying that there is not a possibility that our posture and doctrine wont change in future with a changing world and fast evolving threats but I couldnt see our forces or our government using Nukes in a situation where they arnt in play against us.
Deterrence is fascinating. Ignoring whether Ukraine had the codes to activate their Soviet nukes, or the knowledge or materials to upkeep them till now, when would they use them, had they kept them? Probably not when Crimea was taken. Probably not when the Donbass was invaded. If Kyiv or other major population centres were overrun, then maybe. But at that point, why bother if the capital is lost? Deterrence has failed, and sure nuking Moscow helps other countries, but Kyiv is either occupied, or nuked in retaliation. Plus, we would've missed that amazing turnaround. A conventionally superior foe could salami slice their way to the capital, knowing that only the city about to fall, or nuclear launch sites under attack would elicit MAD.

I know Quora isn't a good source of information, but I was interested in the responses to this question of how Israel, another country with 2nd strike capability, would respond to a surprise nuclear attack. Some of them were surprisingly more level-headed than I expected, not that these are generals talking, with the emphasis on tending to the population, then attacking the perpetrators, over retaliating against civilians. It's funny, because their doctrine has 4 red lines that could lead to a response. One of them, the destruction of the Israeli Air Force, seems particularly aggressive.
 
Deterrence is fascinating. Ignoring whether Ukraine had the codes to activate their Soviet nukes, or the knowledge or materials to upkeep them till now, when would they use them, had they kept them? Probably not when Crimea was taken. Probably not when the Donbass was invaded. If Kyiv or other major population centres were overrun, then maybe. But at that point, why bother if the capital is lost? Deterrence has failed, and sure nuking Moscow helps other countries, but Kyiv is either occupied, or nuked in retaliation. Plus, we would've missed that amazing turnaround. A conventionally superior foe could salami slice their way to the capital, knowing that only the city about to fall, or nuclear launch sites under attack would elicit MAD.

I know Quora isn't a good source of information, but I was interested in the responses to this question of how Israel, another country with 2nd strike capability, would respond to a surprise nuclear attack. Some of them were surprisingly more level-headed than I expected, not that these are generals talking, with the emphasis on tending to the population, then attacking the perpetrators, over retaliating against civilians. It's funny, because their doctrine has 4 red lines that could lead to a response. One of them, the destruction of the Israeli Air Force, seems particularly aggressive.
It really is an interesting aspect. If Ukraine hadnt given up the Soviet nuclear stock that was left behind, and actually somehow managed to have a functional capability (yes! Massive long shot, I know!). I very much doubt we'd be talking about this, and I feel none of this would have ever happened.
I mean its the exact reason NATO countries are happy to play that fine line and hasnt gotten directly involved in fighting Russia and why Russia is happy to duke it out with non nuclear countries yet hesitant to get involved in a genuine fight with Nuclear capable countries and NATO. the threats are thrown around but no direct action is ever taken.
The exceptions to the rule seems to be India/Pakistan/China they seem quite happy keeping it conventional despite all being nuclear capable. However none of them so far have come under any "existential" threat, Just little border scuffles. I'm sure if it were to develope beyond that, things would change.
 
What's the point of these, they are a real MBT hull with APC level weapons but no troop carrying ability.

The MBTs are getting blown up already so one with less powerful weapons will... also get blown up?
I could be wrong but I was under the impression they are designed deployed alongside tank battalions as support giving them improved capability (AT Missiles and guns for lightly armoured/soft targets). They are also "supposed" to be much better suited for urban environment where traditional tanks are at a great disadvantage.
 
What's the point of these, they are a real MBT hull with APC level weapons but no troop carrying ability.

The MBTs are getting blown up already so one with less powerful weapons will... also get blown up?
I suspect they're meant to be very good against infantry (a normal tank is pretty poor as it doesn't have much in the way of anti infantry weapons), but it's still pretty much a sitting duck against anyone with anti armour weapons, unless it's supported by infantry - which is a large part of the problem the Russians have been having with their normal tanks, they don't have the infantry scouting/skirmishing to look for anti tank weapons.
 
What's the point of these, they are a real MBT hull with APC level weapons but no troop carrying ability.

The MBTs are getting blown up already so one with less powerful weapons will... also get blown up?
They're designed as support platforms to suppress or chew up infantry the same way a squad would have a light machine gunner I think
 
If Ukraine hadnt given up the Soviet nuclear stock that was left behind, and actually somehow managed to have a functional capability (yes! Massive long shot, I know!). I very much doubt we'd be talking about this, and I feel none of this would have ever happened.
This might depend on the weapons that Ukraine was left holding, plutonium implosion fusion weapons need some pretty specific timing to work - pulling out firing controls and replacing it with one you control would be difficult. However if you had uranium weapons it would be an easier process to take the fuel and repackage it to make your own bomb - you just need to bring too sub critical pieces of uranium together to form one critical piece quickly (this is the design used on Hiroshima).

Delivery might be a problem - but who knows if Russia would have taken the risk against even a very lightly nuclear armed Ukraine; doesn't make much difference, they gave them all back anyway.
 
— Bloomberg (CET Time)

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From what I remember of Sweden and Finland they both have mandatory conscription. It used to be of all men. But I know many women who do it as well.

I wish UK had something like that too, otherwise if we are ever invaded it'll be like a Dad's Army episode... "don't panic!!!".

So you wish for people within the UK to be forced into service, quite possibly against their will? That is a very interesting position for you to claim, I do have to wonder though.... Do you have the nuts to stand on the front line and defend or are you just expecting "the young" to be forced to do it for you?

It'll be worse most will refuse to actually defend the country because they'd rather not have the inconvenience in their life

And rightly so. This country has been a disgrace for the last 15 years at least, expecting (or forcing) the young and / or the poor (I'm going to assume you will only restrict this to the young / poor) to fight for a country which has done little more than persecute them and treat them like second class citizens.

Everyone will claim some kind of mental health or gender issue.

Good job belittling those with mental health issues, This arrogant display of judgement over those people with mental health problems is exactly the reason why NOBODY should fight for this country, you are simply not deserving.
 
But isn’t this more like the huskies have removed/retreat from there to bring the troops to dombass?
You mean like N and NE of Kyiv? Becoming a pattern no? The main fighting force is around Izyum/Severodonetsk front. Its a bit telling if they are having to pull forces yet again to bolster that front.
The way that its going, in 6 months time, just to get a political win, Putin will be towing the line that all they were trying to do was probe the defences Ukraine...
 
But isn’t this more like the huskies have removed/retreat from there to bring the troops to dombass?
It's either move and live or stay and die. They can pull back to another front but how many of the units are in any fit state to keep fighting? There's plenty of video's out showing Ukraine has now deployed the M777's and the Russians are going to have a hard time of it given M777's have twice the range of the whatever the Russians can field.
 
So you wish for people within the UK to be forced into service, quite possibly against their will? That is a very interesting position for you to claim, I do have to wonder though.... Do you have the nuts to stand on the front line and defend or are you just expecting "the young" to be forced to do it for you?

Good job belittling those with mental health issues, This arrogant display of judgement over those people with mental health problems is exactly the reason why NOBODY should fight for this country, you are simply not deserving.
The first point. You will find that most professional serving personnel would not be interested in fighting with people forced against their will to fight. I dont know how a National service would run these days but the professional and national services would have to be seperate. I'm sure I have covered this topic before in this thread, but motivating current young service peronnel is hard enough as it is. Massive generalisation, however, the majority of this new generation coming through the grinder are just interested in doing as little as possible and picking up a paycheck. Its no longer a lifestyle, or a brotherhood, its a 9-5 with no loyalty or sense of service.


As for your last point, there is no denying that the mental robustness of current generation is lacking. For people with genuine mental health issues I have nothing but respect. However I witness it far far too much, Mental health is a "go to" get out cluase for the weak minded. Unfortunately this tars the people with genuine issues. Its difficult and a very fine line to tread.
 
You mean like N and NE of Kyiv? Becoming a pattern no? The main fighting force is around Izyum/Severodonetsk front. Its a bit telling if they are having to pull forces yet again to bolster that front.
The way that its going, in 6 months time, just to get a political win, Putin will be towing the line that all they were trying to do was probe the defences Ukraine...

1/3rd of all of Russias military attacking Ukraine has now been Destroyed

At the current pace Russias military capability will be rekt for decades to come if this war goes on for another 6 months
 
The first point. You will find that most professional serving personnel would not be interested in fighting with people forced against their will to fight. I dont know how a National service would run these days but the professional and national services would have to be seperate. I'm sure I have covered this topic before in this thread, but motivating current young service peronnel is hard enough as it is. Massive generalisation, however, the majority of this new generation coming through the grinder are just interested in doing as little as possible and picking up a paycheck. Its no longer a lifestyle, or a brotherhood, its a 9-5 with no loyalty or sense of service.


As for your last point, there is no denying that the mental robustness of current generation is lacking. For people with genuine mental health issues I have nothing but respect. However I witness it far far too much, Mental health is a "go to" get out cluase for the weak minded. Unfortunately this tars the people with genuine issues. Its difficult and a very fine line to tread.

I fail to see how putting young people that have been forced against their will into a separate unit or chain of command addresses the issue ?
Regarding the statement "Its no longer a lifestyle, or a brotherhood, its a 9-5 with no loyalty or sense of service." - This notion that people are *required* to serve some kind of allegiance to something, not through choice but through circumstance, is not far short of religious ideology and is noticeably derogatory in it's judgement of others. "no sense of loyalty" - do you know this for sure? can you quantify it? how do you know that people are not "loyal" anymore? It's just an attempt to make a derogatory faux moral judgement on people who do not with to do what *you think* they should do, or what people *used* to do in the past.

"mental robustness of the current generation is lacking" seems like yet another derogatory judgement on young people these days, implying that in the past people were "tougher" and "better" and that people now days "Just don't try / just don't bother". - This really is no different to the current "elite" (some could argue Tory) mentality that "poor people just don't try / are lazy / are stupid" always attempting to blame and belittle the potential victim, preferring to blame the symptom than address the cause. Life was very different 50 years ago, the world has changed, the pace of life has changed, I think if you plucked a bunch of 18-20yr olds from 1950's and dropped them in today's world they would not fair well.
While I do agree that "mental health issues" may be the current "go-to" for potential scammers etc.. - these people have always existed in society, from the huge spike that happened in "whiplash" claims from minor car shunts some years back and the age old "bad back" before that, it is unfair to tar all those who say they have mental health issues with the same brush by saying they are "weak minded" as a way to treat them as "other" or "different" and makes it much easier to continue an "us vs them" narrative, when you are still talking about a very small minority of the population as a whole.

Also... some people choose to be pacifists, what about them? should they be forced both against their will and their beliefs to complete national service and (at worst) kill or be killed?

*Edit* For fear of derailing the thread, perhaps we should leave this here :)
 
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I fail to see how putting young people that have been forced against their will into a separate unit or chain of command addresses the issue ?
Regarding the statement "Its no longer a lifestyle, or a brotherhood, its a 9-5 with no loyalty or sense of service." - This notion that people are *required* to serve some kind of allegiance to something, not through choice but through circumstance, is not far short of religious ideology and is noticeably derogatory in it's judgement of others. "no sense of loyalty" - do you know this for sure? can you quantify it? how do you know that people are not "loyal" anymore? It's just an attempt to make a derogatory faux moral judgement on people who do not with to do what *you think* they should do, or what people *used* to do in the past.

"mental robustness of the current generation is lacking" seems like yet another derogatory judgement on young people these days, implying that in the past people were "tougher" and "better" and that people now days "Just don't try / just don't bother". - This really is no different to the current "elite" (some could argue Tory) mentality that "poor people just don't try / are lazy / are stupid" always attempting to blame and belittle the potential victim, preferring to blame the symptom than address the cause. Life was very different 50 years ago, the world has changed, the pace of life has changed, I think if you plucked a bunch of 18-20yr olds from 1950's and dropped them in today's world they would not fair well.
My point is that National service may help our younger geneartion and our defence should we require it. But it is not compatible with our current armed forces. Working with Reserves is difficult enough, and they want to be there (Not a slight on the reserves, however the term "milage may vary" holds true there. I've worked with mega professional and complete wasters from the reserves... saying that I can say the same for the regs... :cry:

The second point I'm giving you my real world, lived experience. I'm not trying to be derogatory in any way, this is just the reality, as I say there are many exceptions to the rule however, generally this is the trend. I do infact believe that the older generations were tougher, or at least better at just cracing on where required, I think trhere has been some sort of lost ability to handle genuine hardship or a lowered tolerance to it. Life was different 10 years ago never mind 50. However, that dosnt mean we dont need mentally robust people. The world is changing fast and not in the direction it was last year. That old saying “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” rings so true today. These times are a turning point in society.
 
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