Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[esmozz]

Falklands cleared of nearly all landmines, 38 years on from war

Tens of thousands of mines and bombs removed as part of UK-funded programme since 2009

www.theguardian.com

A war which lasted 74 days over a landmass orders of magnitude smaller than Ukraine.

I must admit, ultimately it's up to Ukraine whether to use them within its own borders but as I've previously said, I fear what it says about the ability of Ukraine to expel Russia from within those borders.

 

[Grim5]

Isnt Russell Brand a comedian?

If saying stupid stuff because you're an idiot and those things you say are so outlandish that people laugh with pitty, then yep, world class comedian

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

You mean the ra ra cheerleaders who think this is a COD game and the Walter Mitty's who think they are battle field tacticans?

No I mean the weak sops who constantly wring their hands and say weaksauce things like the counter is going nowhere because they fail to have any clue at all.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

It is probably easier to simply flatten the area using anti-mine ordnance and rebuild.

It already seems to be flattened. It’s less than ideal, but Ukraine must be losing a lot of personnel and they have no choice but to win this. It’s a terrible position to be in.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Every time these weapons are used with the tacit support of nations that are party to the ban it weakens the argument against their use elsewhere. If we buy the argument that this use is special and so okay, then it opens the argument that this next time is special and so okay too.

Ukraine did not sign up to the convention banning the use of cluster munitions. We have no business imposing our morals on them when they are in a struggle for survival with an evil morally bankrupt nation like Russia.

Of course, the US's refusal to sign up to the convention is already driving a coach and horses through the convention anyway, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

Russia did not sign up to the convention banning the use of cluster munitions either. Why should the Ukrainians be denied the use of cluster munitions when the invader is happy to use them and has shown total disregard for the lives of Ukrainian civilians? The Russians have wiped their arses with the Geneva Convention and committed numerous war crimes. If you deny the Ukrainians these weapons you give the Russians an advantage on the battlefield.

 

[Grim5]

Due to record low birth rates not seen since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the war in Ukraine, the total population of Russia is currently falling by 2300 people every single day and it's actually still accelerating

Babykris i Ryssland – lägsta födelsesiffrorna sedan 90-talet

I juni föddes rekordfå barn i Ryssland och om trenden håller i sig kan de ryska födelsetalen i år bli de lägsta sedan slutet av 90-talet. Det säger en oberoende analytiker till SVT. Samtidigt minskade den ryska befolkningen med närmare 190 000 personer under det första kvartalet i år.

www.svt.se

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Due to record low birth rates not seen since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the war in Ukraine, the total population of Russia is currently falling by 2300 people every single day and it's actually still accelerating

Babykris i Ryssland – lägsta födelsesiffrorna sedan 90-talet

I juni föddes rekordfå barn i Ryssland och om trenden håller i sig kan de ryska födelsetalen i år bli de lägsta sedan slutet av 90-talet. Det säger en oberoende analytiker till SVT. Samtidigt minskade den ryska befolkningen med närmare 190 000 personer under det första kvartalet i år.

www.svt.se

It’s pretty bleak for them. Covid hammered their population, they’re sending many of the young men to the front and many of their brightest have left the country.

 

[Peter75]

I fear what it says about the ability of Ukraine to expel Russia from its borders.

I think general consensus amongst the western audience is that the Russians are heavily dug in. I get why people could see the supply of them as a sign of desperation but It's been discussed that stockpiles are low of other 155? (I'm not an expert) munitions and these will help bolster stocks as well as the actual effect of using this type of ordinance.

"For more than a year the U.S. has dipped into its own stocks of traditional 155 howitzer munitions and sent more than 2 million rounds to Ukraine. Allies across the globe have provided hundreds of thousands more. A 155 mm round can strike targets 15 to 20 miles (24 to 32 kilometers) away, making them a munition of choice for Ukrainian ground troops trying to hit enemy targets from a distance. Ukrainian forces are burning through thousands of the rounds a day battling the Russians. Yehor Cherniev, a member of Ukraine’s parliament, told reporters at a German Marshall Fund event in the U.S. this spring that Kyiv would likely need to fire 7,000 to 9,000 of the rounds daily in intensified counteroffensive fighting. Providing that many puts substantial pressure on U.S. and allied stocks.

The cluster bomb is an attractive option because it would help Ukraine destroy more targets with fewer rounds, and since the U.S. hasn’t used them in conflict since Iraq, it has large amounts of them in storage it can access quickly, said Ryan Brobst, a research analyst for the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

A March 2023 letter from top House and Senate Republicans to the Biden administration said the U.S. may have as many as 3 million cluster munitions available for use, and urged the White House to send the munitions to alleviate pressure on U.S. war supplies.

“Cluster munitions are more effective than unitary artillery shells because they inflict damage over a wider area,” Brobst said. “This is important for Ukraine as they try to clear heavily fortified Russian positions.”

Tapping into the U.S. stores of cluster munitions could address Ukraine’s shell shortage and alleviate pressure on the 155 mm stockpiles in the U.S. and elsewhere, Brobst said"

Why the US is willing to send Ukraine cluster munitions now

The Biden administration has agreed to provide controversial cluster munitions to Ukraine that it says could help its forces penetrate Russia's defensive lines, but that many nations have pledged not to use again due to risks to civilians.

apnews.com

 

[esmozz]

No I mean the weak sops who constantly wring their hands and say weaksauce things like the counter is going nowhere because they fail to have any clue at all.

I find the idea that you think you have a clue laughable. Please, do tell where you get such inside knowledge from - I'm sure I'll be impressed. Or will you have to kill me if you do?

Let me walk you though this.

-Cluster munitions are highly contentious weapons. The U.K. for example, has banned their use.
-Deploying them will have (possibly quite severe) miltary and political consquences both now and in the future as others in the thread have mentioned.
-Despite this the people who decided to supply them (you know - the people who actually do know what's going on) decided to do so anyway.
-What does this infer about what they know about Ukraines abilty to expel Russia from it's borders given the price that will be paid?

 

[Roar87]

Due to record low birth rates not seen since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the war in Ukraine, the total population of Russia is currently falling by 2300 people every single day and it's actually still accelerating

Babykris i Ryssland – lägsta födelsesiffrorna sedan 90-talet

I juni föddes rekordfå barn i Ryssland och om trenden håller i sig kan de ryska födelsetalen i år bli de lägsta sedan slutet av 90-talet. Det säger en oberoende analytiker till SVT. Samtidigt minskade den ryska befolkningen med närmare 190 000 personer under det första kvartalet i år.

www.svt.se

Ukraine population was forecast to shrink 20% by 2050 prior to the war in Ukraine. Both countries are in dire straights https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1155943055/ukraine-low-birth-rate-russia-war

 

[Rroff]

It is crazy how much ammo can be used in intensive combat - a few hours of action in one battle would have used up a substantial portion of UK stocks or artillery and small arms stores...

 

[Uther]

I'm certainly uncomfortable with the use of cluster munitions, and hope it's not a slippery slope to even more horrible weapons being used. Saying that, like everyone else here I'm not sitting in a muddy trench in Ukraine getting shot at and trying to repel an invading army.

 

[Freakbro]

Ukraine did not sign up to the convention banning the use of cluster munitions.

Nor did the US or Russia, which is why cluster munitions have and are going to be used in the war by both sides.

We have no business imposing our morals on them when they are in a struggle for survival with an evil morally bankrupt nation like Russia.

Umm, it is because of our morals that we are supporting Ukraine militarily and financially in the first place and we as a country have banned the use of cluster munitions. So yes, we are well within our rights to criticise their use, even if we can't stop it.

Russia did not sign up to the convention banning the use of cluster munitions either. Why should the Ukrainians be denied the use of cluster munitions when the invader is happy to use them and has shown total disregard for the lives of Ukrainian civilians? The Russians have wiped their arses with the Geneva Convention and committed numerous war crimes. If you deny the Ukrainians these weapons you give the Russians an advantage on the battlefield.

1) They aren't being denied them and 2) Having principles and sticking to them is one of the things that differentiates the "good" guys and the "bad" guys.

Why not use biological and chemical weapons then, that'll help Ukraine. Lets give them battlefield nukes, that'll help Ukraine.

 

[Peter75]

I'm certainly uncomfortable with the use of cluster munitions, and hope it's not a slippery slope to even more horrible weapons being used. Saying that, like everyone else here I'm not sitting in a muddy trench in Ukraine getting shot at and trying to repel an invading army.

Ends justifying the means deal huh. I don't know, the mental gymnastics required to justify the use of one weapon over another is crazy. One is maybe more cruel than the other but the end result is the same either way.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Ukraine can use whatever the bloody hell they want to. It's their country they're defending. Don't like it? Leave Ukraine then.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I find the idea that you think you have a clue laughable. Please, do tell where you get such inside knowledge from - I'm sure I'll be impressed. Or will you have to kill me if you do?

Let me walk you though this.

-Cluster munitions are highly contentious weapons. The U.K. for example, has banned their use.
-Deploying them will have (possibly quite severe) miltary and political consquences both now and in the future as others in the thread have mentioned.
-Despite this the people who decided to supply them (you know - the people who actually do know what's going on) decided to do so anyway.
-What does this infer about what they know about Ukraines abilty to expel Russia from it's borders given the price that will be paid?

Honestly so pathetic.

The UK has banned them yes, and we know why. Russia, the US and Ukraine didn't.
There could be consequences. I don't really doubt that if the UK needed them we would recommence production.
The issue is, you cannot uninvent things.

Cluster munitions are not going to be a game change IMO. They may help partly in some areas, for sure. I doubt they will be supplied in levels that will honestly be some massive change moment.

The US government have stated that the supply is temporary whilst they ramp up production of HE 155. In case you haven't noticed the US haven't been at war for a while.
Like all nations we don't make war levels of ammunition and equipment whilst not at war. Its not hard to understand why.
YOU have specifically said you disregard what those experts say and then turn around and say the people who know are to be listened to. The person with the issue here is not me, its YOU.

I agree on cluster munitions, they are not great. We know why, they have a reasonably high instance of not detonating. Because they rely on impact and if they happen to fall into certain areas they will not detonate.

I don't have any secret info no, but I keep myself as informed as I can. Because I want to see Ukraine succeed.
All the people I watch and follow have always said don't expect quick and easy wins. And yet the person who is saying that its going bad is you.
All these people tend to think its going ok, not well but ok.

Ukraine liberated 200 square kms in June. That's active fighting based areas. People forget how large Ukraine is.

Again as others have said go and look at Dday maps. Or ww1 maps of how the fronts change and how slowly at times.

 

[Uther]

Ends justifying the means deal huh. I don't know, the mental gymnastics required to justify the use of one weapon over another is crazy. One is maybe more cruel than the other but the end result is the same either way.

I don't justify it at all. Nothing is nice in war, and if I was in Ukraine I would want everything to fight with. I'm not,so I can be uncomfortable with the idea, but can certainly see their point of view.
Years from now, kids will be getting maimed from these munitions, obviously the Ukrainians think that is a price worth paying.

 

[Peter75]

I don't justify it at all. Nothing is nice in war, and if I was in Ukraine I would want everything to fight with. I'm not,so I can be uncomfortable with the idea, but can certainly see their point of view.
Years from now, kids will be getting maimed from these munitions, obviously the Ukrainians think that is a price worth paying.

Oh no, sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything, it was just a throw away comment really. I'm in total agreement with everything you said.

 

[Peter75]

People forget how large Ukraine is.

They really do.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I don't justify it at all. Nothing is nice in war, and if I was in Ukraine I would want everything to fight with. I'm not,so I can be uncomfortable with the idea, but can certainly see their point of view.
Years from now, kids will be getting maimed from these munitions, obviously the Ukrainians think that is a price worth paying.

I think its important to remember where Ukraine is likely to use these munitions.
They are most likely to use them on the defence fortifications that Russia has built.
These are already mined to hell, stocked with weaponry and ammunition.
That needs to be sorted out once Russia is booted out anyway.

Russia has however used cluster munitions as well as other dubious munitions for over a year already and on civilian areas.
The faster the Russians are booted out the less opportunity they will have to do so.
Arguably less kids will face death with Ukraine using cluster munitions if it speeds up kicking Russia out.

Taking emotion out. Is it better to save 10 kids lives now, but accept 3 may lose their lives in 20 years time. Most of us in those terms would say yes.
Ideally both would be zero of course.

And again, my expectation is that Ukraine will work very hard in order to absolutely minimise this issue.

The main issue with mines and how long they take to clear from old conflict zones is that most of the time there is little effort to do so.
When you put little effort into something, its no surprise that it takes a very long time.