Caporegime
Ukraine would take pointy sticks if for free.
It's their joing NATO which is the most "interesting" step.
It's their joing NATO which is the most "interesting" step.
Except they are ideal for neither. Troops in the open, light skinned vehicles, and area denial by creating minefields.
It is crazy how much ammo can be used in intensive combat - a few hours of action in one battle would have used up a substantial portion of UK stocks or artillery and small arms stores...
The reason you don't use cluster bombs is because you fire it today and in 5 years you kill a farmer or a child. You're essentially just committing a war crime because cluster munitions are indiscriminate.
I find the idea that you think you have a clue laughable. Please, do tell where you get such inside knowledge from - I'm sure I'll be impressed. Or will you have to kill me if you do?
Let me walk you though this.
-Cluster munitions are highly contentious weapons. The U.K. for example, has banned their use.
-Deploying them will have (possibly quite severe) miltary and political consquences both now and in the future as others in the thread have mentioned.
-Despite this the people who decided to supply them (you know - the people who actually do know what's going on) decided to do so anyway.
-What does this infer about what they know about Ukraines abilty to expel Russia from it's borders given the price that will be paid?
The reason you don't use cluster bombs is because you fire it today and in 5 years you kill a farmer or a child. You're essentially just committing a war crime because cluster munitions are indiscriminate.
Their responsibility to clean up the mess but I would hope we all muck in and support them as best we can after the dust settles.Yes, but, the Ukrainians are choosing to use it inside their own country. Their decision. Their responsibility to clear the mess up later.
I mean, lets face it, there are probably thousands of Russian mines to clear anyway.
YOU have specifically said you disregard what those experts say and then turn around and say the people who know are to be listened to. The person with the issue here is not me, its YOU.
....constantly wring their hands and say weaksauce things like the counter is going nowhere because they fail to have any clue at all.
Point me to the post where you complained about russian use of thermobaric, incendiary, and cluster munitions etc etc etc.
You can't fight with one hand tied behind your back like you suggest.
I did'nt post it because it should'nt need to be said.
Perhaps we should allow Ukraine to castrate their POWs, I'm sure there are a few posters in this thread who would enjoy watching that.
Right. so where is your silent protest now?
Nor did the US or Russia, which is why cluster munitions have and are going to be used in the war by both sides.
Umm, it is because of our morals that we are supporting Ukraine militarily and financially in the first place and we as a country have banned the use of cluster munitions.
1) They aren't being denied them and 2) Having principles and sticking to them is one of the things that differentiates the "good" guys and the "bad" guys.
Why not use biological and chemical weapons then, that'll help Ukraine. Lets give them battlefield nukes, that'll help Ukraine.
I always find "rules" surrounding war and what weapons you can use to be such a strange thing.
I do partially get it (and appreciate some of the reasons), but at the same time it always seems absurd.
"Sure, violently kill people, but just don't kill them in that way."
I mean, why not just decide it all with a game of rock paper scissors then?
IIRC Russia was using the cluster munitions not only offensively as part of it's attempt to take over another sovereign nation, but in Civilian areas.Hypocrisy, thy name is America.
What are cluster bombs and why is US sending them to Ukraine?
Cluster bombs are banned by more than 100 countries - so the move will likely draw intense criticism.www.bbc.com
Quite interesting that even the BBC which is as pro Ukrainian as you can get still clearly recognises the erosion of decency. This has to be one of the lowest moves in the war so far. The use of cluster munitions is awful and will blight the country for years to come. Just because the Ukrainian and Russian forces have used already in the conflict doesn't mean it should be adopted.
Now in the future we are likely to see the use of such munitions openly in worldwide conflicts with far less oversight and it will be mocked when we protest. The Russians will probably use in their dirty deals in Africa with impunity. This move has killed countless people in the future.
And yes I'm passionate about this topic beyond the scope of this conflict. These are evil weapons with their effects on civilian population well known.
1) They would be denied them if the lefties had their way.
The reason the UK won't give chemical or biological weapons to Ukraine is because: 1) we don't have any, 2) it would be illegal under conventions we have signed
and 3) it would be escalatory and would probably cause us to get dragged into the war.
(2 and 3 applies to the USA, as they probably do still have some stockpiles of them.)
The reason the UK/USA/France won't give nuclear weapons to Ukraine is because: 1) it would be illegal under conventions we have signed (NPT) and 2) it would be escalatory and would probably cause us to get dragged into the war.
Since the Russians have used cluster munitions against Ukraine already then their use by Ukraine cannot be escalatory.