Man of Honour
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Bit different using them on terrorist occupiers than on innocent civilians.
Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar
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Bit different using them on terrorist occupiers than on innocent civilians.
Soldato
Admittedly we are behind in details but they are there if you follow the correct sources.
Geolocated images etc.
Soldato
Trump factor. Even things like happening in the NL right now.
No matter how much Chris Wilson prays for it
Soldato
They are not arguably illegal.
As far as the US is concerned they are legal as they are not a party to the agreement that prohibits them.
The Ukrainian government likewise I believe.
Caporegime
It will be innocent civilians who are killed or maimed by the unexploded bomblets for years to come. It doesn't matter who launched them, the lasting consequences are the same.
Man of Honour
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There are more innocent civilians being killed, raped and tortured while the Russians are there. The sooner the Russians are out the sooner that stops.
Caporegime
You seem to be arguing with the voices in your head here.
Man of Honour
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That’s the best comeback you have? Weak.
No, I’m agreeing the Ukrainians on how they see best to fight on their own territory. What you or anyone else thinks to the contrary is moot.
Soldato
The only thing that makes me have less of an issue here vs in other potential conflicts is that from everything I have seen about the Ukrainian administration they seem very focused on the rigth things.
As such I think they would work hard on dealing with the legacy left over efficiently which would dramatically cut down on the longer term impact.
...umm, have you seen the state of society these days
Yes. A few posters demonstrate it quite regularly in this very thread.
We thank them for their service is showing how out of touch and weak some are.
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Soldato
...umm, have you seen the state of society these days
The same insane stuff can also happen in Russia, unless the wagner march was some 200 IQ move none of us have seen through yet.
I get the concern, they are totally valid. Probably why it’s taken this long for them to be given.
But, they’ll be for a specific purpose - to saturate areas where the Russians are dug in and normal shells can’t do enough. Horrible arithmetic but if it results in more Russians killed than Ukrainians having to assault + the collateral in the years later then it’s an option they have to take.
They should only be getting used in areas that are already filled to the brim with mines, unexploded ordinance etc so it’s not like there won’t be a huge cleanup effort afterwards regardless. Plus they will hopefully keep track of where they’ve been deployed.
Edit: don’t get me wrong though, it is a slippery slope. Follow that same logic to the nth and you can start arguing the use of chemical or bio weapons.
Hopefully a sensible middle ground has been found.
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You mean the ra ra cheerleaders who think this is a COD game and the Walter Mitty's who think they are battle field tacticans?
Caporegime
Hopefully, but these things are rarely foolproof. This will be mitigation rather than elimination of the problem.
It's not just chemical or bio weapon use that is affected, it's the use of cluster munitions elsewhere. Every time these weapons are used with the tacit support of nations that are party to the ban it weakens the argument against their use elsewhere. If we buy the argument that this use is special and so okay, then it opens the argument that this next time is special and so okay too.
Of course, the US's refusal to sign up to the convention is already driving a coach and horses through the convention anyway, so perhaps it doesn't matter. But I will very surprised if we don't see the supply to, and use by, Ukraine used as justification by some group or another in the near future.
‘More Than 1,000 Years Needed’ to Clear All UXO From Laos
Local experts estimate that it would take over 1,000 years to clear all unexploded ordnance (UXO) in Laos at the current clearance rate. Mr. Chomyaeng Phengt
laotiantimes.com
1000 years to clear Laos of unexploded ordinance, I've seen figures say 800 years but it doesn't really matter, both are equally horrifying numbers. Sadly, these weapons will have a practical use (pragmatic head on) and if I were Ukrainian, I guarantee I would condone the use of them. I wonder what the average civilian in Ukraine thinks.
‘More Than 1,000 Years Needed’ to Clear All UXO From Laos
Local experts estimate that it would take over 1,000 years to clear all unexploded ordnance (UXO) in Laos at the current clearance rate. Mr. Chomyaeng Phengt
1000 years to clear Laos of unexploded ordinance, I've seen figures say 800 years but it doesn't really matter, both are equally horrifying numbers. Sadly, these weapons will have a practical use (pragmatic head on) and if I were Ukrainian, I guarantee I would condone the use of them. I wonder what the average civilian in Ukraine thinks.
It is probably easier to simply flatten the area using anti-mine ordnance and rebuild.
Soldato
Falklands cleared of nearly all landmines, 38 years on from war
Tens of thousands of mines and bombs removed as part of UK-funded programme since 2009
www.theguardian.com
Falklands cleared of nearly all landmines, 38 years on from war
Tens of thousands of mines and bombs removed as part of UK-funded programme since 2009
A war which lasted 74 days over a landmass orders of magnitude smaller than Ukraine.
I must admit, ultimately it's up to Ukraine whether to use them within its own borders but as I've previously said, I fear what it says about the ability of Ukraine to expel Russia from within those borders.
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