Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Orangeade said:
and ifs true about Russias offer at start of conflict...
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Rather irrelevant what Russia "offered" at the start, as you'd have to be a fool to have taken anything they said as genuine. Remember Putin was denying they were going to invade at all, saying the troop build up was just training.

Orangeade said:
Then basically 500,000+ people are now dead/wounded for American self interest.
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It's more the Ukranians self interest....in having their own country!

Orangeade said:
Sure the Russians deserve it for invading, can't be surprised when you're shot on land that isn't yours.....but for the poor Ukrainian ******** that were sent to their deaths for no reason..urgh.
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It's obviously not for no reason though is it, see answer #2 above.
 
Freakbro said:
Rather irrelevant what Russia "offered" at the start, as you'd have to be a fool to have taken anything they said as genuine. Remember Putin was denying they were going to invade at all, saying the troop build up was just training.



It's more the Ukranians self interest....in having their own country!



It's obviously not for no reason though is it, see answer #2 above.
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I don't think you can just dismiss what was said, especially if it should have been a Ukrainian decision not America/UK...

As for second part you missed my point or ignored it. Ukrainians fighting for their country is all well and good if the leadership knew there was a genuine chance of success and it was open and transparent. If it was known or deeply suspected that it was just about bringing attrition to one side for everyone else's benefit.....at the expense of other ordinary lives then this would be pure evil.

steve45 said:
People keep focusing on numbers of dead troops on each side. Fatality rate isnt really the major issue as sad as it is. The issue will be wounded and injured. Yes there will be a lot that heal and return to the front. However, there will also be a large number, a number that far surpasses that of fatalities, of troops that are too physically injured/missing limbs/mentally broken to return to combat.
Whilst the "stats" for fatalities appears to be much higher for Russia. I suspect that number for wounded and unable to return to combat is much closer. Considering all the video evidence to show how Russia generally treat their wounded...


Also a point that I have brought up before on the Wests slow/reluctance to release "game changing" arms. I have long suspected that they are being released at just the right speed that they want to, to keep this war grinding on. I sometimes question the sincerity/motivation of western powers when it comes to this war and its outcome.
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I understand the typical multiplier effect of more injured than killed, but some transparency on topic again would be interesting. If actually there were 250,000 dead on Ukrainians side (just made up figure) then the public should know and hold their leader to account or be able to decide if they want to participate.

Even Vitali Klitschko was in the papers today saying he feared Ukraine was going to become like Russia with everything being on the whim of one man...

The second point I agree with you, this has been the best bargain of all time for Western powers. Through some old equipment and "other peoples" human life at no cost of your own.....all to give the russian bear a bloody nose.
 
Orangeade said:
I understand the typical multiplier effect of more injured than killed, but some transparency on topic again would be interesting. If actually there were 250,000 dead on Ukrainians side (just made up figure) then the public should know and hold their leader to account or be able to decide if they want to participate.

Even Vitali Klitschko was in the papers today saying he feared Ukraine was going to become like Russia with everything being on the whim of one man...

The second point I agree with you, this has been the best bargain of all time for Western powers. Through some old equipment and "other peoples" human life at no cost of your own.....all to give the russian bear a bloody nose.
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Oh I get where you are coming from from a Transparency thing, but its not really helpful at all from a Military perspective. Being able to accurately numerate the enemies fighting force is a powerful piece of information, one that is rightfully kept vague, The motivation to keep numbers secret isnt to pull the wool over the Ukrainian/Western people its to keep the truth from the Russians. They are at war afterall. Thats a problem for after the conflict.
Personally I dont know where I stand on the delayed election side of things. I do however agree that its really not the right time. Its neither safe for residents to be gathering at polling stations (you know how Russia have no qualms over strike civilian targets), nor is it beneficial for the conflict.
 
Orangeade said:
I don't think you can just dismiss what was said
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Yes you can, quite easily. When a liar has just lied to your face then you're a fool if you just believe their next utterance.

Orangeade said:
Ukrainians fighting for their country is all well and good if the leadership knew there was a genuine chance of success and it was open and transparent.
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That's just nonsense though. No-one knew the outcome of WW2 and in the first half when Germany was steamrollering everyone, your solution would be to not fight back?
 
From this week's Economist (as wages/ death compensation was discussed a few pages back)- bolding is mine.

"Russia’s vast and poor hinterland has also benefited from the cash the authorities are dangling in order to secure more recruits to the army. Those who volunteer are paid around 195,000 roubles a month, four times the newly increased average salary in Izhevsk, and a one-off bonus on enlistment of 195,000 roubles. The families of those killed in battle receive generous payments, too. Vladislav Inozemtsev, a Russian economist at the Polish Institute of Advanced Studies in Warsaw, estimates that the family of a soldier who gets killed after five months’ service would receive about 15m roubles in total, including pay and compensation. It would take an average Russian man 30 years to earn as much. Life expectancy for a Russian man is only 65. Mr Putin’s regime is trying to turn getting killed into an economically rational choice, argues Mr Inozemtsev."
 
Seems Putin’s next plan is to make it more financially attractive to sign up rather than retire.. it then removes the aging population.
It then leaves a population of young brainwashed by the putin education system ready to fight, with it being financially attractive for women to breed the next generation of fighters.
 
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Orangeade said:
But is it really about funding or people? Zeleknsky himself said that recruitment is now a huge issue.

I would be curious to know what the fatality rate on both sides actually is. Talks of 70k on Ukrainian side must be rubbish surely at this stage if there is recruitment issues?
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Better funding, better weapons = less casualties on your side.
 
It's sickening, more so Europe, conflict is on our doorstep and we don't give a fudge, outside of a few token gestures and cast offs.

Then again just look at the state of most European forces, outside Poland.
 
alchal said:
Obviously we are more afraid of a collapsed and defeated Russia than a victorious one.

Baffles me why, no wonder Poland has been blowing its load on its military, its seen the ineptitude of NATO/EU to act decisively in the face of a peer on peer war.
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Ineptitude of NATO? You do understand that NATO isn't actually at war, don't you? Pretty sure that if it was a war between NATO and Russia with the full gamut of NATO's assets being brought to bear then large swathes of Russia would be a smoking wasteland by now. What do you suggest NATO should've done, handed over everything short of nuclear weapons to Ukraine and left themselves severely depleted?
 
Malevolence said:
Ineptitude of NATO? You do understand that NATO isn't actually at war, don't you? Pretty sure that if it was a war between NATO and Russia with the full gamut of NATO's assets being brought to bear then large swathes of Russia would be a smoking wasteland by now. What do you suggest NATO should've done, handed over everything short of nuclear weapons to Ukraine and left themselves severely depleted?
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What I meant was the Western world which pretty much covers the NATO alliance hope that clears that up for you.

Also the alliance members could hand over far more and better capabilities, no one is attacking any NATO member anytime soon.
 
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alchal said:
What I meant was the Western world which pretty much covers the NATO alliance hope that clears that up for you.

Also the alliance members could hand over far more and better capabilities, no one is attacking any NATO member anytime soon.
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I don’t doubt the same elements in the US who are chomping at the bit to throw Ukraine under a bus wouldn’t hesitate to do the same with the Baltic states.
 
Stretch said:
I don’t doubt the same elements in the US who are chomping at the bit to throw Ukraine under a bus wouldn’t hesitate to do the same with the Baltic states.
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That would pretty much be the end of the US as a super power. I recon such a policy would last an administration or two at best.
 
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