Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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It's already under consideration.

The larger members of nato are considering implementing a tiered nato system, where article 5 only applies to the top members and not the bottom members. That allows countries like Germany, UK and US to throw smaller members like the baltics under the bus and if Putin say invaded Estonia and Latvia, there would be no obligation for the other NATO members to defend Estonia and Latvia, they would still need to provide supplies as is done with Ukraine but that's it, nothing more than what is done for Ukraine

Of course it will never work. If the idea starts to gain serious traction it will see all the small countries immediately leave NATO and start their own defensive block
 
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jigger said:
That would pretty much be the end of the US as a super power. I recon such a policy would last an administration or two at best.
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I think we’re close to that now. If the US can’t get Ukraine right their authority is shot. They have a shocking track record since the Iraq war. One **** up after another.

Throw in 4 years of Trump trying to undermine NATO, and potentially another 4 years of the same, I think much of the world are going to be questioning where they want to put their eggs.
 
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Grim5 said:
It's already under consideration.

The larger members of nato are considering implementing a tiered nato system, where article 5 only applies to the top members and not the bottom members. That allows countries like Germany, UK and US to throw smaller members like the baltics under the bus and if Putin say invaded Estonia and Latvia, there would be no obligation for the other NATO members to defend Estonia and Latvia, they would still need to provide supplies as is done with Ukraine but that's it, nothing more than what is done for Ukraine

Of course it will never work. If the idea starts to gain serious traction it will see all the small countries immediately leave NATO and start their own defensive block
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It worked very well for all western countries in the past when they've played the ostrich strategy. Oh, wait... :rolleyes:
 
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Stu999 said:
Russia would be decimated as soon as they attack a NATO country.
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Just watch the Tories and American Republicans somehow get out of that obligation...

The way things are going, there wont be a Nato soon. People are ******* stupid, constantly voting for these morons who are obviously happy to destroy any semblance of our security. We have people squabling over maga conspiracies in the halls of government, our leaders in the UK bringing culture war nonsense into parliament.

The west is ****** in more ways than one and it keeps getting worse, meanwhile we got all the idiots who constantly spout off about how the UK/US has fallen tearing our countries down from the inside with division ******** on any progressive policies that may make things better(maga types) all in the name of making there countries "great again" what ever that means.

The likes of Putin/Xi must be loving this ****, watching the fruits of their labour from social media influence and other things come to bear.

Meh.
 
Stretch said:
I think we’re close to that now. If the US can’t get Ukraine right their authority is shot. They have a shocking track record since the Iraq war. One **** up after another.

Throw in 4 years of Trump trying to undermine NATO, and potentially another 4 years of the same, I think much of the world are going to be questioning where they want to put their eggs.
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Some people in the US are definitely attempting to move the nation to a global stupid power.
 
rumple9 said:
and now it seems all for nought
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That entirely depends on what perspective you take. Yes its utterly despicable that we allowed this to happen the loss of life and impact on those who have survived and their families is heartbreaking. However, if you look at it coldly from a strategic point of view. We now have a major power, who has been militarily decimated all those experienced soldiers/officers etc. Beyond the lives they have lost a significant part of their deployable equipment has been turned into scrap.
It will take years for them to recover to a point where they are in a position to mount another invasion.
That dosnt make the hesitation/trickle feed of arms and waining interest from western nation right. But purely from a selfish NATO perspective it hasnt been for nought. Should we have done more? ABSOLUTELY! Should we have done it earlier? Without a doubt!

I dont think all is lost yet, however the future aint exactly looking rosey. The next 4-5 months are going to be difficult for Ukraine. Hopefully next spring/summer will proves more fruitful.
 
rumple9 said:
It's sickening. Drip feeding Ukraine and now it seems all for nought and all those lives lost. Putin is getting what he wants. All he needs to do now is hold out 12 months for Trump win
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Well maybe but I’m really not sure the US are prepared for another Trump administration. Not to mention that Russia went after the Israel’s and for that Putin will have to pay.
 
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Demonising one side for years with wide sweeping generalising and being shocked when they say no is a bit strange to be honest. We have literally had a Labour leader who would have backed Putin all the way run for PM at the last election but now the Tories are the untrustworthy the ones :confused: We should be trying to win over people the strength of our argument not name calling and if we don't maybe that responsibility lies with us for not putting a good enough argument forward.

In my opinion the West has been writing checks its mouth cant cash when it comes to support for Ukraine, from the past 30 years we have cut military budgets/infrastructure (both sides are to blame for that) and gambled nothing will happen and now here we are. Russia has been acting up for over a decade and we sat here with our thumb up our ass doing nothing in resonance.
 
XPE said:
In my opinion the West has been writing checks its mouth cant cash when it comes to support for Ukraine, from the past 30 years we have cut military budgets/infrastructure (both sides are to blame for that) and gambled nothing will happen and now here we are. Russia has been acting up for over a decade and we sat here with our thumb up our ass doing nothing in resonance.
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I wont argue with the first point. But OH BOY we spent money alright... Just in the wrong place. All those years scrapping in deserts, pretty much completely adapting our doctrine to anti insurgency and equipping ourselves appropriately. I'm not saying those conflicts didnt have their merit, hell... I spent over a year in Afghanistan over the years, and it even looked like they had a bright future at one point. but in practically none of those conflicts did we have the fortitude to see it through to a satisfactory conclusion.
To be fair the gamble that nothing would happen, whilst shortsighted, probably seemed a pretty safe bet in a time where globalisation was increasing and there was no real significant risk of a conflict with a peer/near peer nation on the horizon. Its crazy how fast that situation can flip on its head.

Russia have looked on and seen weakness, lack of resolve, misplaced focus. Whilst themselves have their knuckles rapped for getting involved with conflicts with neighbors. They have been regressing and growing ill sentiment to the west for over 20 years now.
The West could have done more early on after the collapse of the Soviet Union to try and integrate better with a post soviet Russia. However we continued to hold them at arms length. Quite rightfully so at the time. However with 30+ years of hindsight, we could have possibly had a much friendlier neighbor if we had done things differently.
 
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Point taken, misuse of the funds we were spending should have been on the list as poor project management as well.

But I don't think it was as safe to gamble as you are suggesting, we got caught out every time. We got rid of our aircraft carriers and got involved in Libya like 6 months later, Got rid of our maritime patrol aircraft and needed other countries to cover our needs and then we sold our sentry's to Chile and this conflict came about. What we have been lucky in so far as it not cost us British lives but we have not learned a thing.
 
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I don’t think there is much wrong with the approach taken by the west so far. It’s not perfect but that’s just the way the world works.

The real problem is what’s happened over the last 2-3 months. The support needed to be enduring and unequivocal.

This war isn’t about Ukraine. Russia has directly questioned our resolve more broadly. If we aren’t able to rise to the challenge then it’s the thin end of the wedge.

You can’t keep saying we’ll accept you invading X but if you push it any further then we’ll get serious.

There is still time, but big bets are required now
 
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Artur Rehi reporting that Ukraine have started using the Bayraktars again, on the Kherson front!
Seeing as they are supposedly easy to shoot down maybe the Ukrainians are fairly certain Russian air defences down there are heavily degraded.
Also saying the 37TH marine brigade is fully staffed and started crossing into the area.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Artur Rehi reporting that Ukraine have started using the Bayraktars again, on the Kherson front!
Seeing as they are supposedly easy to shoot down maybe the Ukrainians are fairly certain Russian air defences down there are heavily degraded.
Also saying the 37TH marine brigade is fully staffed and started crossing into the area.
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If they are using large numbers of them then it can only be because enemy air defence is out of action atm, otherwise they'd be shot down
 
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Confirmed by Germany Ukraine will start receiving the RCH-155 self propelled artillery guns in 2024.

What makes the RCH-155 unique among all other high end self propelled guns like the pzh2000 or the krab, is that the RCH-155 fires while moving. The vehicle never has to stand still apart from when loading more ammo, it fires its ammo while driving thanks to the advanced electronics

This is great for anti counter battery operations as the enemy will never know where you are as by the time your gun appears on radar you are already somewhere else. However we are in the age of suicide drones and the RCH-155 doesn't have protection from that
 
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