Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Schlong&Stable]

Putin fanbois?? If you are talking about me, I have nothing personal for Putin, I am just talking about him as a Politician, and you cant deny he is a rather good one when it comes to external affairs, maybe bad for us....

What has he achieved exactly? The only big moves the Russians have made were in Georgia and Syria. The former was a pretty trivial affair as the chances of NATO involvement were low, given Georgia instigated it. In the latter, it was domestic opposition which staved off NATO involvement. Meanwhile, NATO expanded into Eastern Europe and builds a missile shield.

What exactly has Putin achieved in foreign affairs?

Putin is a good President for Russia (for now) as he's strong and has restored some pride to the nation. But he's massively corrupt (black sea palaces) and has done very little to address the major weakness of the Russian economy. If anything, he's made their economic condition even more vulnerable.

 

[ubersonic]

Why the hell does our media use the word protesters to refer to everybody? Rebels running round Libya with AK47s massacring loyalist civilians was not protesting, Rebels in Syria hacking up children/jews/christians was not protesting, Rioters in Ukraine chucking petrol bombs at cops and beating up pro government civilians is not protesting...

 

[thep02]

What I want to know is why all the anti Russia feeling exists, the cold war ended over 20 years ago, Russia is firmly capitalist and it transpires that the Russian "war machine" was rust held together by paint and the cold war was a scam by arms manufacturers and securicrats wanting tax payers dosh.

Anyone who supports the georgian tie eating policestate torturer who is still in power is a moron.

 

[ubersonic]

Georgia, please read previous page where I have showed proof that EU commission has concluded that the war broke out due to Georgian troops heavily shelling a civilian city and Russia had full right to take necessary measures to protect their citizens and peace-keepers.

It's kind of scary that so many people (due to our biased media) don't know this.

The Georgian invasion of South Ossetia, followed by Russian liberation and subsequent beat down of Georgia is almost exactly the same scenario as the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, followed by coalition liberation and subsequent beat down of Iraq. The only real difference is that nobody in the west wanted to hear a story about Russia saving the day.

 

[Longbow]

Rioters in Ukraine chucking petrol bombs at cops and beating up pro government civilians is not protesting...

Yes it is, it's not peaceful protesting.

 

[thep02]

It's kind of scary that so many people (due to our biased media) don't know this.

The Georgian invasion of South Ossetia, followed by Russian liberation and subsequent beat down of Georgia is almost exactly the same scenario as the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, followed by coalition liberation and subsequent beat down of Iraq. The only real difference is that nobody in the west wanted to hear a story about Russia saving the day.

It was the media response to the attack on un mandated Russian peace keepers that opened my eyes to the ww2 level of media control we live under, we're North Korea but rich enough to look nice.

The people taking iver in Ukraine are actual Nazis and the Russians who live around the Crimea will have to declare separation which imho will lead to war.

Now eu tax payers are going to support a bunch of Nazi rioters for decades as not a single Ukraine industry meets eu standards, great.

 

[HaZe71]

So if someone seems to have a more or less balanced view, which in this thread seems to be on Russian side....

You get blamed for being Russian and therefore all your points become invalid??

Answer is No anyway.

Touchy! Its just that your comments come across quite biased.

I wasn't blaming you for anything! Its not your fault you're Russian!

 

[Nerusy]

So that didnt happen then. It as touch an go for a whole day the world thought Russian forces were going to take Tbilisi. Then Bush made his Televised statement The Ruskies halted and then Condolesa Rice flew to Tbilisi.

Did this not Happen ?

I'm no fan of the Bush administration by any means but these events happened interpret them how you wish I dont care.

Russians said since the start they are going to destroy military installations that were used in shelling of Tskhinvali and withdraw, that's exactly what they did.

If they went into Tbilisi, USA would not be able to do anything as direct military assistance was out of question and USA was providing military aid to Georgia as it is, there was absolutely nothing stopping Russia from taking had they wanted to but they didn't because there was no need for that, they cleared out military targets so that another attack on Tskhinvali could not happen and backed off. If you think Bush saying anything had any impact on Russia you, then you should have enough humility not to discuss things out of your grasp.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

It's kind of scary that so many people (due to our biased media) don't know this.

The Georgian invasion of South Ossetia, followed by Russian liberation and subsequent beat down of Georgia is almost exactly the same scenario as the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, followed by coalition liberation and subsequent beat down of Iraq. The only real difference is that nobody in the west wanted to hear a story about Russia saving the day.

Whut? It's not at all like it. Kuwait was a sovereign nation, South Ossetia was and remains part of the Georgia. The situations are not comparable in the least, and it's scary that you cannot see the huge gaping hole in your thinking on the tpic.

 

[Zethor]

I'm surprised to see quite a few pro-Russian voices around here. Almost every nation that has been 'blessed' with Russia as a neighbour has suffered from it, at various times in history. The bloodiest failed experiement in human history started in Russia (communism).
The fact that they are a governed by a corrupt, totalitarian, soviet nostalgic doesn't help either.

Given these facts, Russian hate shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Nerusy]

What exactly makes him a good politician? Internally, he rules a poor country with an iron fist

Russia is 8th in terms of nominal GDP and 6th by PPP GDP, hardly a poor country is it. Unless of course you mean per capita, in which case having low gdp per capita does not reflect the influence it has on the world, just like China has even lower per capita but quite obviously has immense influence in the world.

 

[thep02]

I'm surprised to see quite a few pro-Russian voices around here. Almost every nation that has been 'blessed' with Russia as a neighbour has suffered from it, at various times in history. The bloodiest failed experiement in human history started in Russia (communism).
The fact that they are a governed by a corrupt, totalitarian, soviet nostalgic doesn't help either.

Given these facts, Russian hate shouldn't be a surprise.

Er it started in Germany and they aren't commies anymore they have a 13% flat tax fgs, I understand why their neighbors hate them but to act upon that hate is stupid and as westerners to act upon their actions is stupider, all Russia wants is to sell their oil and gas fir the market value and lets not forget Russians were the biggest victims of Russian communism.

 

[Nerusy]

I'm surprised to see quite a few pro-Russian voices around here. Almost every nation that has been 'blessed' with Russia as a neighbour has suffered from it, at various times in history. The bloodiest failed experiement in human history started in Russia (communism).
The fact that they are a governed by a corrupt, totalitarian, soviet nostalgic doesn't help either.

Given these facts, Russian hate shouldn't be a surprise.

What you're seing is people not blindingly believe west bias on the subject however I am seeing western bias replaced with Russian bias at this point.

There were nationalistic parties involved in protest and then rebellion. They were not majority and were simply taking advantage of the situation. Ukraine is not being overtaken by racist thugs like it seems to be implied. It is one big mess right now and we need to see who will cease control from it.

First thing they did after dismissing president was to revoke the law passed under him, said reverse of the law, pushed by neo-nazi leader, now makes it illegal for majority speaking Russian region to use Russian as official language on municipal level. First thing they do is strain relations with Russian speaking Ukranians, so it is a fair concern that nationalistic parties may emerge as dominant power in all of this but we will see.

Edit: You are also quite wrong to think that sharing border with Russia is harmful. Compare the economic characteristics between say Belarus, who after the collapse remained strong ally to Russia and Georgia who after the collapse decided to side with west. Belarus, even being under an absolutely authoritarian rule, has greater gdp per capita, lower income inequality and higher human developing index than Georgia.

And generally it takes a bit longer than 23 years for countries to recover from major cluster**** that was the soviet collapse.

 

[ubersonic]

Whut? It's not at all like it. Kuwait was a sovereign nation, South Ossetia was and remains part of the Georgia. The situations are not comparable in the least, and it's scary that you cannot see the huge gaping hole in your thinking on the tpic.

South Ossetia was a "de-facto" sovereign nation, in that it wasn't recognised as a country internationally but was an independent entity, it was formed after the breakup of the USSR and achieved independence from Georgia in 1992 following the first Georgia/Ossetia war (after which Georgia promised not to mess with it again, it then existed perfectly happily until Georgia elected a new aggressive president in 2004 who promised to conquer South Ossetia and re-intergrate it into Georgia (actually using Hitler quotes in the TV campaign). This spurred numerous clashes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian peacekeepers.

The invasion in 2008 is quite comparable to the first Iraq war in that Georgia invaded a neighbor in order to expand it's territory and capture resources because it thought nobody would oppose it (like Iraq did), then Russia liberated South Ossetia (like the coalition did to Kuwait), and then chased the retreating Georgian forces into Georgia and gave them a bloody nose to make them think twice about doing it again (just like the coalition did to Iraq).

 

[thep02]

All this Ukraine upheaval will have ramifications in both Moldova and transnistria, there is zero chance that Russia will allow ethnic Russians who have lived in these regions for decades or century's to be expelled or oppressed and they certainly won't accept tens of millions of refugees streaming back to Russia and NO ONE is in a position to make the Russians submit.

This whole thing smells like Atlantacists making trouble for "mittel Europe".

 

[Schlong&Stable]

South Ossetia was a "de-facto" sovereign nation, in that it wasn't recognised as a country internationally but was an independent entity, it was formed after the breakup of the USSR and achieved independence from Georgia in 1992 following the first Georgia/Ossetia war (after which Georgia promised not to mess with it again, it then existed perfectly happily until Georgia elected a new aggressive president in 2004 who promised to conquer South Ossetia and re-intergrate it into Georgia (actually using Hitler quotes in the TV campaign). This spurred numerous clashes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian peacekeepers.

The invasion in 2008 is quite comparable to the first Iraq war in that Georgia invaded a neighbor in order to expand it's territory and capture resources because it thought nobody would oppose it (like Iraq did), then Russia liberated South Ossetia (like the coalition did to Kuwait), and then chased the retreating Georgian forces into Georgia and gave them a bloody nose to make them think twice about doing it again (just like the coalition did to Iraq).

South Ossetia is not recognised as an independent nation by the international community. The Georgians have a right to assert their territorial integrity and recapture breakaway regions. I am certain that in time, they will do just that.

Kuwait was not part of Iraq, it was an internationally recognised sovereign nation being invaded by a neighbour.

You pretty much confirm all of this above, so I am not sure why you're attempting to argue? 'De-facto' means nothing.

 

[scorza]

Putin fanbois?? If you are talking about me, I have nothing personal for Putin, I am just talking about him as a Politician, and you cant deny he is a rather good one when it comes to external affairs, maybe bad for us.... But for Russia he is a rather good one, if a person is on other side of barricade it does not make them automatically bad, well if you have enough brain to understand that is

I wasn't talking about you. There have been other threads in the past where the Putin fanboism has reached unprecedented levels of homo-erotic fawning.

I'd never use the term "good" when talking about Putin's actions on the world stage. Sure having Bashar al-Assad release all the Al-Queda prisoners in Syria was effective at eroding western support for the Syrian rebels, but ultimately it's not in Russian interests to do something like that. Countries who are good at foreign relations are effective at listening, compromise and agreements to engineer win-win scenarios. All Putin seems to care about is that the US and Europe don't get what they want - even if it's against the interests of ordinary Russians.

 

[Zethor]

Russia is 8th in terms of nominal GDP and 6th by PPP GDP, hardly a poor country is it. Unless of course you mean per capita, in which case having low gdp per capita does not reflect the influence it has on the world, just like China has even lower per capita but quite obviously has immense influence in the world.

Yes, I did mean per capita and yes, Russia is a poor country.

Er it started in Germany and they aren't commies anymore they have a 13% flat tax fgs, I understand why their neighbors hate them but to act upon that hate is stupid and as westerners to act upon their actions is stupider, all Russia wants is to sell their oil and gas fir the market value and lets not forget Russians were the biggest victims of Russian communism.

The system that lead to the deaths of dozens of millions people started in or was enforced by Russia. The German philosopher which you refer to had no more to do with it than Nietzsche with Hitler.

Does the 13% flat tax include the bribes you're forced to pay in Russia to do as little as moving a finger? The biggest victims of communism were actually the Chinese, 60+ million of them. Russia (Putin) cares about restoring Russia's "rightful" place in the world as a super power, nothing else. If selling things and generally doing business for the well being of the Russians were his goal, he would reform the deeply corrupt economical, judicial and political systems.

What you're seing is people not blindingly believe west bias on the subject however I am seeing western bias replaced with Russian bias at this point.

There were nationalistic parties involved in protest and then rebellion. They were not majority and were simply taking advantage of the situation. Ukraine is not being overtaken by racist thugs like it seems to be implied. It is one big mess right now and we need to see who will cease control from it.

First thing they did after dismissing president was to revoke the law passed under him, said reverse of the law, pushed by neo-nazi leader, now makes it illegal for majority speaking Russian region to use Russian as official language on municipal level. First thing they do is strain relations with Russian speaking Ukranians, so it is a fair concern that nationalistic parties may emerge as dominant power in all of this but we will see.

The UK is handling UKIP does it not? Similarly, Ukraine should and will handle it's extremists. The fact of the matter is, a majority of the population support the EU route so when their President was pushed by Putin into telling the EU to bugger off (Yanukovych admitted this, word for word), the people reacted.

The rise of the extremists and this law they passed as well as those of the future are the direct effect of the way Russians conduct foreign policy.

Edit: You are also quite wrong to think that sharing border with Russia is harmful. Compare the economic characteristics between say Belarus, who after the collapse remained strong ally to Russia and Georgia who after the collapse decided to side with west. Belarus, even being under an absolutely authoritarian rule, has greater gdp per capita, lower income inequality and higher human developing index than Georgia.

And generally it takes a bit longer than 23 years for countries to recover from major cluster**** that was the soviet collapse.

So let me get this straight.......... Your example of a country that benefited from being close to Russia is one in which there's even a more repressive regime than that of Russia itself? Your problem is that you do not understand what it is like to not have freedom. You have neither experienced lack of freedom nor have you educated yourself on the subject - that's the only reason why you would assume that living in an authoritarian regime is beneficial, in any shape or form.

 

[thep02]

@Zethor, I was actually on about the fact that the Russian revolution was a German Intel op during the first world war not Marx's nationality, talk about blowback eh?

 

[Nerusy]

Yes, I did mean per capita and yes, Russia is a poor country.

As I explained it is not a poor country, total GDP will show the influential and military power capability, per capita reflects standard of living, a country can have terrible standard of living yet immense economic and military power and hence influence, such as China. That's a free lesson in economics for you, my uneducated friend.

The UK is handling UKIP does it not? Similarly, Ukraine should and will handle it's extremists. The fact of the matter is, a majority of the population support the EU route so when their President was pushed by Putin into telling the EU to bugger off (Yanukovych admitted this, word for word), the people reacted.

The rise of the extremists and this law they passed as well as those of the future are the direct effect of the way Russians conduct foreign policy.

Should and will? You're a prophet now? What I did is present facts about the situation and said we will see who will emerge as controlling party out of this. Lets not make predictions based on **** all all right there buddy.

You have absolutely zero knoweledge of Russian foreign policy.

So let me get this straight.......... Your example of a country that benefited from being close to Russia is one in which there's even a more repressive regime than that of Russia itself? Your problem is that you do not understand what it is like to not have freedom. You have neither experienced lack of freedom nor have you educated yourself on the subject - that's the only reason why you would assume that living in an authoritarian regime is beneficial, in any shape or form.

First of all, you suggested that being neighbors with Russia is bad. I have presented facts that it is not outright bad, as right now Belarus is far far better off than Georgia economically and in terms of quality of life.

Now being under authoritarian rule does of course have it's on disadvantages and I never denied that, I simply presented the fact that Belarus quality of life is better than Georgia. Everything else is you going for good old strawman because just like every other uninformed person, you don't know anything to say apart from "duh they poor and dictator durr".

Lastly, I have traveled and lived in authoritarian countries so I think I have a better understanding of said countries than you, especially given how uneducated you are on the subjects of economics and politics.