Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[ubersonic]

South Ossetia is not recognised as an independent nation by the international community.

But it is by a number of countries, and as one of them happens to be Russia then Georgia will have difficulty starting trouble again.

You pretty much confirm all of this above, so I am not sure why you're attempting to argue? 'De-facto' means nothing.

Because waiting well over a decade after the declaration of independence before invading should have meant Georgia for-fitted any claim to South Ossetia, not that their claim was really legitimate in the first place.

It would be like the Czech Republic turning round today and demanding Slovakia back.

 

[Nerusy]

The UK is handling UKIP does it not? Similarly, Ukraine should and will handle it's extremists. The fact of the matter is, a majority of the population support the EU route so when their President was pushed by Putin into telling the EU to bugger off (Yanukovych admitted this, word for word), the people reacted.

Just to highlight once again just how misinformed and naive you are. Western majority wants closer ties with the EU, Eastern Majority wants closer ties with Russian. Population majority, both west and east, were against Yanokovych.

 

[scorza]

Nerusy - personal insults don't make you look clever or further your argument. There is no East Ukraine and West Ukraine, just Ukraine. What is needed now is a unity government and then be left alone by everyone else to sort out the situation in their country, and it is their country not Russia's country. I hope they get that but when it's in Putin's interests for chaos and violence then chaos and violence usually follows.

 

[thep02]

Nerusy - personal insults don't make you look clever or further your argument. There is no East Ukraine and West Ukraine, just Ukraine. What is needed now is a unity government and then be left alone by everyone else to sort out the situation in their country, and it is their country not Russia's country. I hope they get that but when it's in Putin's interests for chaos and violence then chaos and violence usually follows.

The Crimea was actually part of Russia so there is a de facto East and West Ukraine and the Sevastopol naval base is actually Russian, as Moldova couldn't be peacefully organised and the West couldn't force integration of the ethnicities do you think Ukraine will be different.

 

[Nerusy]

Nerusy - personal insults don't make you look clever or further your argument. There is no East Ukraine and West Ukraine, just Ukraine. What is needed now is a unity government and then be left alone by everyone else to sort out the situation in their country, and it is their country not Russia's country. I hope they get that but when it's in Putin's interests for chaos and violence then chaos and violence usually follows.

What personal insults? The fact that he sound so arrogant when he shows lack of basic understand of economics irks me.

What do you mean there is no east and west? Of couse there is east and west, they have a long standing cultural divide, western culture being influenced by Poland and eastern by Russia. In fact South Ukraine Crimea has been Russian and was a gift during soviet times to the Ukraine, the people living there didn't change, they considered themselves Russian before and they consider themselves Russian now but do hold dual citizienship. That cultural divide exist there is no point in denying it.

What is needed now is a unity government and then be left alone by everyone else to sort out the situation in their country

Absolutely, how anybody can disagree with this? The topic at hand is mostly about warfare of misinformation.

 

[Zethor]

As I explained it is not a poor country, total GDP will show the influential and military power capability, per capita reflects standard of living, a country can have terrible standard of living yet immense economic and military power and hence influence, such as China. That's a free lesson in economics for you, my uneducated friend.

There are many ways to measure poverty in a country, I chose GDP per capita. I consider China a poor country too, regardless of influence or power. Thanks for the lesson, it was certainly revealing, although not on the subject of economics.

Should and will? You're a prophet now? What I did is present facts about the situation and said we will see who will emerge as controlling party out of this. Lets not make predictions based on **** all all right there buddy.

You have absolutely zero knoweledge of Russian foreign policy.

Your facts are interesting, I just don't buy the "west bias" claim. Ukraine belongs to the Ukrainians and they will sort this mess out. It is my opinion the mess wouldn't have happened in the first place had the Russians not pushed the President into ditching the EU.

First of all, you suggested that being neighbors with Russia is bad. I have presented facts that it is not outright bad, as right now Belarus is far far better off than Georgia economically and in terms of quality of life.

Now being under authoritarian rule does of course have it's on disadvantages and I never denied that, I simply presented the fact that Belarus quality of life is better than Georgia. Everything else is you going for good old strawman because just like every other uninformed person, you don't know anything to say apart from "duh they poor and dictator durr".

Lastly, I have traveled and lived in authoritarian countries so I think I have a better understanding of said countries than you, especially given how uneducated you are on the subjects of economics and politics.

So what if Belarus is doing better than Georgia? Why would you compare it with a Caucasus country anyway? If you want to make a comparisson, shouldn't you use Belarus' neighbours - Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia? We both know why you didn't do that, don't we, buddy?

I stand by being original claim that being a neighbour to Russia lead to suffering but hey, who I am to judge if you think living under a dictatorship is not that bad.

I obviously hit a nerve, considering your string of insults. Did you by any chance live as a citizen in one of the Eastern Europe dictatorships or just as a visitor?

 

[Zethor]

Just to highlight once again just how misinformed and naive you are. Western majority wants closer ties with the EU, Eastern Majority wants closer ties with Russian. Population majority, both west and east, were against Yanokovych.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_relations

Polls going back to 2004 and as recent as Nov. 2013 show popular support for EU intergration higher than any alternative - even the latest, dodgy, stated financed one.

 

[RedDanDoc]

Russians said since the start they are going to destroy military installations that were used in shelling of Tskhinvali and withdraw, that's exactly what they did.

If they went into Tbilisi, USA would not be able to do anything as direct military assistance was out of question and USA was providing military aid to Georgia as it is, there was absolutely nothing stopping Russia from taking had they wanted to but they didn't because there was no need for that, they cleared out military targets so that another attack on Tskhinvali could not happen and backed off. If you think Bush saying anything had any impact on Russia you, then you should have enough humility not to discuss things out of your grasp.

So they didnt attack Gori then ? Anyhow Ive had enough of replying to your simple minded posts you clearly dont have a clue what your talking about. Your probably starved of attention which kind of figures.

 

[Nerusy]

There are many ways to measure poverty in a country, I chose GDP per capita. I consider China a poor country too, regardless of influence or power. Thanks for the lesson, it was certainly revealing, although not on the subject of economics.





Your facts are interesting, I just don't buy the "west bias" claim. Ukraine belongs to the Ukrainians and they will sort this mess out. It is my opinion the mess wouldn't have happened in the first place had the Russians not pushed the President into ditching the EU.





So what if Belarus is doing better than Georgia? Why would you compare it with a Caucasus country anyway? If you want to make a comparisson, shouldn't you use Belarus' neighbours - Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia? We both know why you didn't do that, don't we, buddy?

I stand by being original claim that being a neighbour to Russia lead to suffering but hey, who I am to judge if you think living under a dictatorship is not that bad.

I obviously hit a nerve, considering your string of insults. Did you by any chance live as a citizen in one of the Eastern Europe dictatorships or just as a visitor?

Fact of the matter is, Russia is not a poor country. I do not care about your personal uneducated views.

As for "ditching EU", nobody forced anybody, Russians offered a better deal. Just like we were not given the option to bail out banks, the government decided for us, the same way general public can not decide between EU and Russian deal as they do not have the credentials to even understand the deal.

As for comparison, I used Belarus because it is the strongest supporting ex-soviet bloc and Georgia being the opposite. You at first say that being neighbor to Russia is horrible yet acknowledge that Litva, Lithuania and Estonia are doing quite well. You are contradicting yourself right now sweetie.

The reason why I sound agitated is because I have here you, a schoolboy, that lacks any understanding of economics or politics, arguing as if you've got phd in geopolitics. What irks me even more is that after I explain to you the difference between poor country and low standard of living you still refuse to acknowledge your ignorance. Be gone now troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_relations

Polls going back to 2004 and as recent as Nov. 2013 show popular support for EU intergration higher than any alternative - even the latest, dodgy, stated financed one.

Buhahahaha the table you linked shows exactly what I said the country is around 50-50 split on the choice of whether to join EU buahhahah you didn't even read the table that you linked

Eu Integration vote: November 2013 Kyiv International Institute of Sociology For 39% Against :35% (37% supported Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia)

 

[Nerusy]

So they didnt attack Gori then ? Anyhow Ive had enough of replying to your simple minded posts you clearly dont have a clue what your talking about. Your probably starved of attention which kind of figures.

What do you not understand? They occupied Gori yes, Gori had military targets that needed to be destroyed to prevent repeat shelling of Tskhinvali.

How do you not know this? Ah of course, you don't know it because you're ignorant on the subject. ** edit **

 

[RedDanDoc]

What do you not understand? They occupied Gori yes, Gori had military targets that needed to be destroyed to prevent repeat shelling of Tskhinvali.

How do you not know this? Ah of course, you don't know it because you're ignorant on the subject.

Ive been to the City of Gori many times thanks and there is no military base in that city.

I wouldn't mind if you could make a cogent and educated argument then I would respect your opinion but unfortunately you fail and just resort to insulting other posters.

If somebody has a different view to you or contradicts what you say you resort to calling people trolls. I must say you are really letting yourself down.

** edited **

 

[thep02]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_relations

Polls going back to 2004 and as recent as Nov. 2013 show popular support for EU intergration higher than any alternative - even the latest, dodgy, stated financed one.

If you were to look at the two deals in question with a neutral eye you would akso have taken the Russian offer if in a position to do so as the eu was offering nothing but poverty and systemic unemployment with no right to free movement, imo the eu didn't want Ukraine to accept their offer. I don’t see the USA or eu offering tens of billions of dollars or euro grants as the Ukrainians will never be able to repay loans, nothing at all in Ukraine meets mandatory eu standards.

 

[Nerusy]

Ive been to the City of Gori many times thanks and there is no military base in that city.

I wouldn't mind if you could make a cogent and educated argument then I would respect your opinion but unfortunately you fail and just resort to insulting other posters.

If somebody has a different view to you or contradicts what you say you resort to calling people trolls. I must say you are really letting yourself down.

Oh so when yo insult me it's all good

dont have a clue what your talking about. Your probably starved of attention which kind of figures.

but when I return the favour it's not okay? Yeah right

Oh you've been to Gori, no weapons there right? Of course you a honorary British citizen would have the privilege to inspect all Georgian military installments yes? The official conclusion of western impartial observers seem to disagree with your wife and you not seeing military in Gori, you jokers.

I can call you trolls because I have hard cold facts on my side and if you are arguing against facts while isnulting me, ** edit **

 

[ubersonic]

Ive been to the City of Gori many times thanks and there is no military base in that city.

Gori is a Georgian city close to the border with the breakaway province of South Ossetia. It was the staging area for the Georgian army during the Battle of Tskhinvali and was bombed several times by the Russian Air Force.
On August 9, the bombs hit a residential district of the city near the local military base, destroying and damaging several apartment buildings and a school, killing and injuring many. According to the Georgian Government, 60 were killed.

 

[scorza]

If you were to look at the two deals in question with a neutral eye you would akso have taken the Russian offer if in a position to do so as the eu was offering nothing but poverty and systemic unemployment with no right to free movement, imo the eu didn't want Ukraine to accept their offer. I don’t see the USA or eu offering tens of billions of dollars or euro grants as the Ukrainians will never be able to repay loans, nothing at all in Ukraine meets mandatory eu standards.

Not a chance. The path to the EU offers Ukraine access to a market for Ukrainian goods and services nine times larger than Russia. It also offers a path towards lower levels of corruption, fairer dealings and the rule of law. Putin's Eurasian Union offers crony capitalism, oligarchism and criminality. The "deal" on offer was a clumsy bribe and not to be trusted - Russia has reneged on previous deals with the Ukraine, including the one where they promised to stay out of Ukrainian politics in return for the Ukraine giving up its Soviet era nuclear weapons.

Russia in its current form is unsustainable. It's only a matter of time imo before we see Russia in some form making moves to join the EU. I fully expect this to happen within my lifetime.

 

[RedDanDoc]

The Local Military Base is not situated inside the City.

 

[RedDanDoc]

Oh so when yo insult me it's all good



but when I return the favour it's not okay? Yeah right

Oh you've been to Gori, no weapons there right? Of course you a honorary British citizen would have the privilege to inspect all Georgian military installments yes? The official conclusion of western impartial observers seem to disagree with your wife and you not seeing military in Gori, you jokers.

I can call you trolls because I have hard cold facts on my side and if you are arguing against facts while isnulting me, you are the definition of a troll. Be gone now I say.

Go live under your Dictatorship where you clearly belong and will be happy.
Oh and keep the missus out of it ok.

 

[Zethor]

As for "ditching EU", nobody forced anybody, Russians offered a better deal. Just like we were not given the option to bail out banks, the government decided for us, the same way general public can not decide between EU and Russian deal as they do not have the credentials to even understand the deal.

As for comparison, I used Belarus because it is the strongest supporting ex-soviet bloc and Georgia being the opposite. You at first say that being neighbor to Russia is horrible yet acknowledge that Litva, Lithuania and Estonia are doing quite well. You are contradicting yourself right now sweetie.

You used Belarus/Georgia because it was convinient for your weak argument. I did not say those countries aren't doing well, I said their proximity to Russia meant suffering. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were occupied by the Russians until recently. They are harassed regularly by the Russian authorities:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140114/18...Sales-of-Sprats-Produced-by-Latvian-Firm.html
http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/09-01-2014/126569-russia_imports_estonia-0/

In fact, Russians act this way towards most neighbours that don't share their views:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24992076

Brilliant neighbours, aren't they? I stand by my initial claim and you've shown absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.

The reason why I sound agitated is because I have here you, a schoolboy, that lacks any understanding of economics or politics, arguing as if you've got phd in geopolitics. What irks me even more is that after I explain to you the difference between poor country and low standard of living you still refuse to acknowledge your ignorance. Be gone now troll.

Firstly, I am not a schoolboy.
Secondly, I have lived a good chunk of my life as a citizen in one of the Eastern European dictatorships so my views are not only based on solid pieces of information, they are based on experience as well.

You failed to back up any of your claims or to dispute mine and, instead, you're throwing insults left and right. Who exactly is behaving like a schoolboy here?

Buhahahaha the table you linked shows exactly what I said the country is around 50-50 split on the choice of whether to join EU buahhahah you didn't even read the table that you linked

Eu Integration vote: November 2013 Kyiv International Institute of Sociology For 39% Against :35% (37% supported Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia)

All the polls show clear support for the EU, except the latter which was done by a Government funded institution. The same Government that ditched the EU in the month of the poll. Even in this dodgy poll, the support for the EU is higher by a small margin. Why are you ignoring 3 more polls done in 2013 which show support at 50%+ ? Why are all those wrong but the one done by the Government isn't?

 

[Nerusy]

Go live under your Dictatorship where you clearly belong and will be happy.
Oh and keep the missus out of it ok.

So you were beaten in an argument and you tell me to go live in a dictatorship? Once again. ** edit **

In fact go live in Georgia if you seem to defend it so much that facts don't matter to you.

 

[Nerusy]

You used Belarus/Georgia because it was convinient for your weak argument. I did not say those countries aren't doing well, I said their proximity to Russia meant suffering. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were occupied by the Russians until recently. They are harassed regularly by the Russian authorities:

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140114/18...Sales-of-Sprats-Produced-by-Latvian-Firm.html
http://english.pravda.ru/news/business/09-01-2014/126569-russia_imports_estonia-0/

In fact, Russians act this way towards most neighbours that don't share their views:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24992076

Brilliant neighbours, aren't they? I stand by my initial claim and you've shown absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.




Firstly, I am not a schoolboy.
Secondly, I have lived a good chunk of my life as a citizen in one of the Eastern European dictatorships so my views are not only based on solid pieces of information, they are based on experience as well.

You failed to back up any of your claims or to dispute mine and, instead, you're throwing insults left and right. Who exactly is behaving like a schoolboy here?




All the polls show clear support for the EU, except the latter which was done by a Government funded institution. The same Government that ditched the EU in the month of the poll. Even in this dodgy poll, the support for the EU is higher by a small margin. Why are you ignoring 3 more polls done in 2013 which show support at 50%+ ? Why are all those wrong but the one done by the Government isn't?

Strawman again? I never argued Russia is a brilliant neighbour, I pointed out that is not simply destructive as you seem to think. World is not as black and white as you might think. You will find out later in life.

Next, you talk about backing up argument whereas you don't seem to care about facts

I chose GDP per capita. I consider China a poor country too, regardless of influence or power.

You seem to think gdp per cap is the only measure that matters, I have explained many times now why you are wrong, yet you still choose to believe in your own personal unsubstantiated criteria. ** edited **

The support for intergration for EU is around 50% and support to integrate Customs Union is around 30% at peak for leaning to EU. My original point was that east wants Customs Union west wants EU and if you poll east and west separately you'd have exactly that. The support would need to be at least at 60% to make it majority by the way, right now, under your own polls the country is evenly divided on joining EU and third wants to join Customs Union.