Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
I prefer the words of the EU commissioner I heard.
10-15 years of mass unemployment.
Decimation of pensions and services.
Mass closure of factories.
The skilled and educated migrating to the west, the type of people the country needs.

The former countries like Poland all went through that process but the world was a different place. Firms rushed to take advantage of cheap labour in these countries. Not any more. There has been a world recession. Wages in the west have been forced down by the recession.

It certainly was not the EU's fault it was the Ukraine's, You cant have it both ways saying it is

Hmm so your suggestion is instead of 15 years of pain and let's not forget freedom of movement and trade they should remain russia's bitch with outdated factories, infrastructure and working conditions? Is this your answer?

Seriously?
:confused:
 
You really think people of Ukraine and Russia are any different in terms of progress on hot topics like racism, homophobia and corruption? You really think it's the Russian immigrants who are ruining the country? The Ukraine mostly lives off east and south, the regions that are more well off are pro-russian, with larger ethnic Russian population, whereas the regions in the west are much poorer, for example most impoverished is Lviv, also, as a result, is the place where bulk of neo-nazis comes from.

If you'd argue Kremilin interest is holding back development of Ukraine due to the geopolitical position that'd be a fair discussion but what you just said is pure and uneducated xenophobia not much different from EDL's blaming all UK's problems on the immigrants.

Hmm so your suggestion is instead of 15 years of pain and let's not forget freedom of movement and trade they should remain russia's bitch with outdated factories, infrastructure and working conditions? Is this your answer?

Seriously?
:confused:

I love the repeated use of "what so ever"

As for Ukraine I don't really care i'm in my 40s and life far to short to care about this stuff.

Given the fact that you said yourself that you do not care about this stuff I doubt you put any effort to education yourself on the subject to be making any valid points in this topic.

However, despite your EDL-like view of the world, I will try to explain to you. On the surface the Russian deal is clearly better, a government that would take the EU deal would be immediately out come the next election as the economy will be in tatters, average person can not comprehend that short term turmoil can be beneficial in the long run (similar to Thatcher), so I would not expect for even pro-EU government to take the deal as it would be the end of them.

I would agree as most people here that over long term integration into EU would be more beneficial. However EU does not want Ukraine in my view, and I believe that's the reason why the deal they proposed is so god awful, whereas Russians offered straight up cash.
 
Last edited:
New Ukrainian president spells it out. Seems more concerned with the financial situation than the geo-politics of his country's freedom revolution. Let's hope that he's still worrying about the Ukraine's economy first and foremost in 6 months time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26361657

We are to undertake extremely unpopular steps as the previous government and previous president were so corrupted that the country is in a desperate financial plight. We are on the brink of a disaster, and this is the government of political suiciders. So, welcome to Hell.
 
New Ukrainian president spells it out. Seems more concerned with the financial situation than the geo-politics of his country's freedom revolution. Let's hope that he's still worrying about the Ukraine's economy first and foremost in 6 months time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26361657

New government will just steal the money and run away :rolleyes:

Look what people are in government right now, there are the ones who got ousted last time :D

There are no new faces in politics in post soviet countries, you just get pro-russian, pro-western but in the end they are all thugs who steal money off people.

I also heard on BBC that the new president will sign the EU deal before the election, may I know... On what grounds can he do such thing?? How is this Democratic?? Half the country doesnt want anything to do with EU.

He hasnt even been elected!
 
Last edited:
New government will just steal the money and run away :rolleyes:

Look what people are in government right now, there are the ones who got ousted last time :D

There are no new faces in politics in post soviet countries, you just get pro-russian, pro-western but in the end they are all thugs who steal money off people.

I also heard on BBC that the new president will sign the EU deal before the election, may I know... On what grounds can he do such thing?? How is this Democratic?? Half the country doesnt want anything to do with EU.

He hasnt even been elected!

He's been elected by parliament, and their parliament legally voted the old president out - this is similar to the way it works in the UK and lots of other countries. If the economy is in as bad a situation as the new president of Ukraine says then a) there's no more money left to steal, and b) he needs to do something to get the economy growing again so an EU deal sounds like a good idea.
 
Just read about the armed men who stormed the Crimean parliament and raised the Russian flag. Sounds like a Putin false flag event to me. Ukrainian forces will have to recapture the parliament, giving Putin an excuse to invade Ukraine on the grounds of "protecting Russian citizens". If they're Russian citizens, why are they in the Ukraine?
 
Just read about the armed men who stormed the Crimean parliament and raised the Russian flag. Sounds like a Putin false flag event to me. Ukrainian forces will have to recapture the parliament, giving Putin an excuse to invade Ukraine on the grounds of "protecting Russian citizens". If they're Russian citizens, why are they in the Ukraine?

Until 1954 iirc Crimea was part of Russia, it was given to Ukraine whilst it was part of the Soviet Union and stayed part of the Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union. It has a large proportion of people who identify as ethnic Russians. A tenuous way of looking at the Crimea is it's sort of like the Falklands or Gibraltar to us.

Edit: it's also the home of the Russian Black Sea fleet which is something Russia would like to keep for strategic reasons I would have thought.
 
Last edited:
Just read about the armed men who stormed the Crimean parliament and raised the Russian flag. Sounds like a Putin false flag event to me. Ukrainian forces will have to recapture the parliament, giving Putin an excuse to invade Ukraine on the grounds of "protecting Russian citizens". If they're Russian citizens, why are they in the Ukraine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine beaten to it

Why are there so many (insert country) citizens in the UK?
So the EU\USA got it's way in the end.
 
EU deal sounds like a good idea.

No it doesnt :o

Russian deal offers a massive cash injection which EU deal does not.

We cant sort out our own defaulting countries, HOW are we going to save a country stuck in soviet era with 50m population....

Moreover, EU deal will only prove beneficial in very long run... That is if they ever get accepted into EU, which is doubtful...

The government that signs EU deal, will be throw out within a year same way as yanukovich.
 
Last edited:
Until 1954 iirc Crimea was part of Russia, it was given to Ukraine whilst it was part of the Soviet Union and stayed part of the Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union. It has a large proportion of people who identify as ethnic Russians. A tenuous way of looking at the Crimea is it's sort of like the Falklands or Gibraltar to us.

Edit: it's also the home of the Russian Black Sea fleet which is something Russia would like to keep for strategic reasons I would have thought.

Fair play. Maybe sounds like an obvious compromise if the Crimea is ceded back to Russia while Russia re-affirms its commitment to staying out of internal Ukrainian politics and respecting the rest of Ukraine's territorial integrity. However, is president Putin in any mood for reason and compromise?
 
No it doesnt :o

Russian deal offers a massive cash injection which EU deal does not.

We cant sort out our own defaulting countries, HOW are we going to save a country stuck in soviet era with 50m population....

The Russian deal is nothing more than a crude bribe, a temporary fix that would have been embezzled away by the oligarchs and their cronies before any effect made its way to ordinary working Ukrainians. The EU deal offers a chance to grow the Ukrainian economy from the basket case it is now to be a successful, prosperous economy governed by the rule of law. Of course this would be against Putin's interest because once the Ukrainian economy is successful, Russian people might start asking "why can't we be like that?".
 
Fair play. Maybe sounds like an obvious compromise if the Crimea is ceded back to Russia while Russia re-affirms its commitment to staying out of internal Ukrainian politics and respecting the rest of Ukraine's territorial integrity. However, is president Putin in any mood for reason and compromise?

You seem to be a bit naive about the "staying out of internal affairs" We have been sticking our noses into everyone's business including Ukraine's for long time. We even got to the absurd situations where we made up stuff just to invade (iraq)

I just cant bring myself to have a go at Putin while we are like x100 worse ourselves and seem to portray that we are saints, world police blah blah blah....

Man is clearly no saint, but I always thought if you are no saint yourself you have no right no judge and read morals to other person who is actually not even as bad as you.
 
The Russian deal is nothing more than a crude bribe, a temporary fix that would have been embezzled away by the oligarchs and their cronies before any effect made its way to ordinary working Ukrainians. The EU deal offers a chance to grow the Ukrainian economy from the basket case it is now to be a successful, prosperous economy governed by the rule of law. Of course this would be against Putin's interest because once the Ukrainian economy is successful, Russian people might start asking "why can't we be like that?".

In what wonder-land do you live may I ask??? We cant even turn Greece,Spain,Ireland,Portugal,Baltics into prosperous economies how the hell Ukraine is going to turn into one?? They are not even offered membership!

UK is a country with barely any industries left and yet we will probably have referendum soon to leave the EU because it is becoming not financially beneficial anymore.... I just.... facepalm :rolleyes:

Then the corruption, corruption has gone nowhere in Greece! It even got worse, since more people want to get hands on the EU money that is being injected.
 
Last edited:
In what wonder-land do you live may I ask??? We cant even turn Greece,Spain,Ireland,Portugal,Baltics into prosperous economies how the hell Ukraine is going to turn into one?? They are not even offered membership!

UK is a country with barely any industries left and yet we will probably have referendum soon to leave the EU because it is becoming not financially beneficial anymore.... I just.... facepalm :rolleyes:

Yes but Germany is doing OK...... It must be everyone else's fault why they are struggling.
 
You seem to be a bit naive about the "staying out of internal affairs" We have been sticking our noses into everyone's business including Ukraine's for long time. We even got to the absurd situations where we made up stuff just to invade (iraq)

I just cant bring myself to have a go at Putin while we are like x100 worse ourselves and seem to portray that we are saints, world police blah blah blah....

Man is clearly no saint, but I always thought if you are no saint yourself you have no right no judge and read morals to other person who is actually not even as bad as you.

Compared to Putin we are saints, look what happens to Putin's enemies. We maintain diplomatic relations with almost all countries, which includes robustly stating our position when required. If that's "sticking our nose in" then guilty as charged, what Russia has been up to in the Ukraine is a lot different to that however.

Anyway, this isn't about what we want, it's about what the people of the Ukraine want - and they don't want Putin's Russia.

In what wonder-land do you live may I ask??? We cant even turn Greece,Spain,Ireland,Portugal,Baltics into prosperous economies how the hell Ukraine is going to turn into one?? They are not even offered membership!

UK is a country with barely any industries left and yet we will probably have referendum soon to leave the EU because it is becoming not financially beneficial anymore.... I just.... facepalm :rolleyes:

Sorry, didn't Ireland recently exit the bailout mechanism? You mention all the failing economies, but one of the reasons why they failed is the levels of corruption in those countries - the same feature of the Ukrainian economy that the Ukrainians want to leave behind. If former Soviet countries like Poland and the Czech Republic can turn themselves into economic success stories then I don't see why the Ukraine can't. At least with the EU they'll have a chance, maintaining the status quo or further Putinisation they will have no chance.
 
UK is a country with barely any industries left and yet we will probably have referendum soon to leave the EU because it is becoming not financially beneficial anymore.... I just.... facepalm

The whole point of the EU was always to de-industrialise (Most of the) member states and destroy their economic independence.

Yes but Germany is doing OK...... It must be everyone else's fault why they are struggling.

That was always kind of the plan, right from the 30's! onwards! ;)
 
Compared to Putin we are saints, look what happens to Putin's enemies. We maintain diplomatic relations with almost all countries, which includes robustly stating our position when required. If that's "sticking our nose in" then guilty as charged, what Russia has been up to in the Ukraine is a lot different to that however.

Anyway, this isn't about what we want, it's about what the people of the Ukraine want - and they don't want Putin's Russia.



Sorry, didn't Ireland recently exit the bailout mechanism? You mention all the failing economies, but one of the reasons why they failed is the levels of corruption in those countries - the same feature of the Ukrainian economy that the Ukrainians want to leave behind. If former Soviet countries like Poland and the Czech Republic can turn themselves into economic success stories then I don't see why the Ukraine can't. At least with the EU they'll have a chance, maintaining the status quo or further Putinisation they will have no chance.


Lol Litvienenko, there isnt even any solid proof for one. For two, NATO has secret prisons where you know what goes on :p you can say Litvinenko died a very nice and peaceful death.

We have toppled whole regimes in our time which refused to co-operate, e.g Libya or for other interesting reasons (not oil ofc) Iraq...

Overall, LOL at you thinking we are saints compared to Putin :D


Poland and CZ were never part of soviet union :rolleyes:, the reason they became so good is that they were new members at the time with cheap work-force compared to western EU, this attracted tonns of investors something that would not happen to Ukraine.

Moreover, you stated yourself... we cant defeat corruption in our Western EU members and you want to deal with a new country that is just rife with corruption? You think it will go away tomorrow or something?

Anyway, you should move to USA, somewhere south.... They like people like you there... Just swap EU ideology to USA one, you`ll live happily here :D

Nice and narrow-minded, munching on CNN and Fox News ;)

P.S.

Even if Putin was personally behind Letvienenko case, what do you think happens to Security Services defectors?? We had 2 in USA so far, err they are wanted to be put to death....

Nothing un-usual here in all fairness, occupational hazard, I think it is made clear that leaking of information would be treated as treason and result in death when they sign up to this kind of stuff...
 
Last edited:
Poland and CZ were never part of soviet union :rolleyes:, the reason they became so good is that they were new members at the time with cheap work-force compared to western EU, this attracted tonns of investors something that would not happen to Ukraine.

Moreover, you stated yourself... we cant defeat corruption in our Western EU members and you want to deal with a new country that is just rife with corruption? You think it will go away tomorrow or something?

What about Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? These former soviet countries are now succesful democracies, most of them growing faster than Western Europe and it's all thanks to foreign investments? You've basically reduced dozens of millions of people to cheap labourers. You should be ashamed for that disgusting insult.

Foreign investments are part of the picture but what lifted those countries out of the ashes of communism was hard work, sacrifice, the fight against corruption, education etc. The same thing can and will happen in the Ukraine.
 
What about Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? These former soviet countries are now succesful democracies, most of them growing faster than Western Europe and it's all thanks to foreign investments? You've basically reduced dozens of millions of people to cheap labourers. You should be ashamed for that disgusting insult.

Foreign investments are part of the picture but what lifted those countries out of the ashes of communism was hard work, sacrifice, the fight against corruption, education etc. The same thing can and will happen in the Ukraine.

Read my opening post, the section about Lithuanian nuclear power station and how we handled it.

Will just add 1 more thing....

You say democratic?;

" A 2008 referendum proposed extending the operation of Unit 2 until a new nuclear plant could be completed as a replacement; the referendum gained 1,155,192 votes for the proposal, but ultimately failed to gain the 50% turnout necessary to be passed.[18] President Valdas Adamkus opposed the measure on grounds that continued operation would not respect Lithuania's international commitments.[19]"

Population of Lithuania is about 3 million, with many working in EU so the exact number is much lower and they had nearly 1.2 million voting in favor of this proposal but it was "waived" obviously because of the reason stated and had nothing to do with EU being quite angry if they went ahead....

Reminds me of the Switzerland refferendum on immigration :rolleyes: EU said it will place harsh sanction on Switzerland should the Swiss government go ahead with this referendum and if it will result in Switzerland refusing freedom of movement....

So much democracy, too much to handle. :p

Poland,Baltics,CZ all joined in 2004, at the time they had chance since those are relatively low population countries (minus poland) and you cant deny the fact cheap labour caused foreign investors to start investing so much and causing their economy to go up...

In all fairness, I`ve been to Baltics a lot and I honestly cant say that the people in LT,LV,EE live better than in dictatorship, soviet styled Belarus. I have spent fair time in all of those countries, the only upper hand I found in Baltics is that nearly all who I met either had family or themselves working in EU...

At the time I visited which was around 2009, the cleaner in UK earned around 800 pounds while teacher in LT earned equivalent of 400 pounds, this is monthly. I cant say what about now, but I still dont think teachers in LT earn same or more than cleaners in UK....

You also cant forget that before 2004, EU actually and UK especially didnt have people to fulfill the low end jobs, so the influx of immigrants who agreed to manual labour for cheap hourly wage was welcomed by employers. No need to go all emotional about this, this is a fact.

This is no more the case, Before 2004 there were NONE post soviet or warsaw pact countries within EU.... As I say again, even those countries who joined in 2004 are not in great shape, the ones who joined recently have no chance and Ukraine is just hopeless.
 
Last edited:
Just a speculative, shot in the dark, but couldn't there be a bit of leverage done here with respect to Ukraine & Russia, and Syria & Russia. With Russia starting to spout "massive violations of human rights in Ukraine", could there not be some sort of room for some sort of negotiation given the "beyond all reasonable doubt" human rights violations" in Syria?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom