Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Jokester said:
The people of the Crimea ultimately should be given the right to self-determination, so if a fair and open referendum is actually going to be held then it's really the only way to go.
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Who are "the people of the Crimea"?

It could be argued that "the people of the Crimea" are the Crimean Tatars. Stalin forcibly displaced or killed them and replaced them with Russians, but the Crimea was Tatar land for ages. There are plenty of them in other parts of the world, including some who were born in the Crimea and got out before Stalin's persecution.

But how far do you go back? The Crimean Tatars got the Crimea in the same sort of way, maybe even bloodier. Is their claim really better than the Russian claim?
 
It's certainly interesting problem. Historically, the land belongs to Ukraine. Culturally, it's now Russian, because of people, who were quite literally planted there after WWII to ensure obeisance. Plus it's not about independence of the territory, like in case of Falklands or parts of Yugoslavia, it's about rights to annexation.

If the will of people currently populating the land is enough, then it sets precedence for truly ridiculous game? Few hundred men in uniforms without any markings or insignia dropped in the middle of the night upon mainland continent to ensure British expats are given vote whether they want seaside part of Portugal annexed to the crown?
 
Well it's a couple of million people, or are you arguing we should hand back NI regardless of what the majority of the people who live there actually want.
 
Apparently Russia has moved about 40 thousand extra troops to the area near the Finnish border. Last night on the way home I saw a convoy of tank transporters . #ww3 #putin #mjau
Winter is coming
 
ubersonic said:
Technically speaking the elected president was impeached by the elected government following the shooting of rioters by the police.

Having said that it did happen after he fled and the government was overrun by the rioters, so it was no more/less legitimate than anything the Crimean government has done following the taking of their HQ by armed men.
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Exactly, it was after he fled, which has some interesting questions attached itself... Alongside that I'd also like to know the full list of events after the first person died. Before the 80 died there was another day where about 10 protestors and 8 police died, how did that start? We're the police or rioters the dirt to start taking lives? Did the police then become much heavier handed because they lost a few people a day or two before?

Edit: or were the reports of police deaths misreported?
 
Jokester said:
The people of the Crimea ultimately should be given the right to self-determination, so if a fair and open referendum is actually going to be held then it's really the only way to go.
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Really?
How small do you split a nation when consider who has the right to what?
Go far enough and you'll split many countries in component parts.
 
Jokester said:
Well it's a couple of million people, or are you arguing we should hand back NI regardless of what the majority of the people who live there actually want.
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No, but you could split it in half....
If you want to take a region, split it, give one half the referendum, and then ask the question.

Split the north via the River, give one half a referendum, of course you'll get a different answer.
You are suggesting the same.
Ludicrous
 
Johnnytoxic said:
I would put the BBC and Sky News in that bracket too.

I am serious.
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I used to prefer the BBC to Sky News. They're still the lesser of two evils but since the Syria conflict broke out I find them too incredible to watch. Way too partial. Way too cosy with our government.

So can't they hold a referendum in Crimea and let the people choose? From what I suspect it would go Russia's way. That would be the most democratic thing to do and since we're all about democracy (when it fits).
 
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Hikari Kisugi said:
No, but you could split it in half....
If you want to take a region, split it, give one half the referendum, and then ask the question.

Split the north via the River, give one half a referendum, of course you'll get a different answer.
You are suggesting the same.
Ludicrous
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You do realise that Crimea is already a recognised region within Ukraine with it's own devolved parliament?
 
Domo said:
I used to prefer the BBC to Sky News. They're still the lesser of two evils but since the Syria conflict broke out I find them too incredible to watch. Way too partial. Way too cosy with our government.

So can't they hold a referendum in Crimea and let the people choose? From what I suspect it would go Russia's way. That would be the most democratic thing to do and since we're all about democracy (when it fits).
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Who has said they can't have a free and fair referendum? You can't have a free and fair election in the Crimea at the moment with Russian troops in de facto control, and with a ridiculously short (~1 month) timeframe for the election. No-one is going to accept the results of any such election.

I also question why the pro-Russian mobs (who I suspect are taking orders from the Kremlin) are so keen for no UN representatives to be present in the Crimea at the moment. What don't they want the world to see?
 
scorza said:
I also question why the pro-Russian mobs (who I suspect are taking orders from the Kremlin) are so keen for no UN representatives to be present in the Crimea at the moment. What don't they want the world to see?
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well you have the cossacks and the serbs who have been bused in to keep order which is nice.

sadly i can see this dragging on for ages and more and more russians turning up and then when a vote does happen it will be too late as the population will have been augmented by more pro russians.

watching william hauge this morning and he sounds like a nutless wonder talking about visa bans and possible sanctions. im sorry putins laughing at all of this publicly, he knows europe wont act and america wont act with the un, which of course russia has a veto to wave at. and around and around we go.
 
Yeah because average Joe on the streets of Donetsk knows what a Blackwater merc looks like. Clearly some sort of false flag/disinformation type activity going on.
 
You know when something is going to happen when Hague starts sprouting BS as he is doing today. I wish someone would shot him.
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Really?
How small do you split a nation when consider who has the right to what?
Go far enough and you'll split many countries in component parts.
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Crimea is bigger than Wales, you saying were not big enough to be a country either? :P

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BBC with a shock announcement today: Ukraine activists attacked in Crimea!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26503478

OMG, next minute they will be telling us Israeli activists are unpopular on the Gaza strip :P
 
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