Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Sankari · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:05

The West could stop Russia if we really wanted to. There's no lack of military power on our side, just a lack of political will.

Our mistake was indulging Russia for so many years in the vain hope that capitalism would civilise her. That this was never going to happen should have been clear to everyone a long time ago.

jpaul · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:07

thenewoc said:
Yet the UK government came out with a robust 1st round of sanctions against Russian banks and some significant Russian individuals with significant wealth. This was prior to a response from the US. The UK has further backed this up today with an explanation that further sanctions haven't yet been tabled because it's important to have some in reserve to further respond upon Russian invasion of Ukraine.

compared to eu

The European Union has agreed to sanction the 351 members of the State Duma who voted in favour of Russia's recognition of the self-proclaimed people's republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, in eastern Ukraine.

The bloc will also punish 27 individuals and entities accused of destabilising Ukraine, waging disinformation campaigns and providing financial support to the two separatist regions.

can't see their actual sanction policy, but makes Boris look as though he is waiting for others to do the dirty work,
I'm surprised kier didn't attack him more (bar the chinese labour contributor - whose that?)
the govt could just take out front page newspaper adds to expose (to russian peoples) that putin is richest man in the world

How rich is Putin? Putin’s wealth system explained | WTF

Puzzled · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:08

Be interesting to see what China says about it all, they aren't keen on breakaway states declaring independence.

MikeTimbers · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:09

Sankari said:
The West could stop Russia if we really wanted to. There's no lack of military power on our side, just a lack of political will.

Our mistake was indulging Russia for so many years in the vain hope that capitalism would civilise her. That this was never going to happen should have been clear to everyone a long time ago.

It's not that the West couldn't stop Russia, it's that the escalation in such a conflict is so incredibly dangerous.

Gypo · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:11

Puzzled said:
Be interesting to see what China says about it all, they aren't keen on breakaway states declaring independence.

China have come out and said they won't be getting involved basically, no sanctions from them.

Next stop, Taiwan!

Sankari · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:11

Belarus is desperately simping for Putin, as expected.

MikeTimbers said:
It's not that the West couldn't stop Russia, it's that the escalation in such a conflict is so incredibly dangerous.

Well yes, but 'incredibly dangerous' hasn't stopped us before. We have won two world wars that were incredibly dangerous.

Gypo · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:14

Ben Wallace chirping up saying we could kick Russia's ass....sigh.

You seen the state of our military Ben?

Hagar · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:16

Tombstone said:
Its probably a generational thing and that the older generations in those countries were actually used to having everything (in terms of infrastructure, construction, maintenance etc) done for them and now that its gone its left a void of power and things not getting done. Whereas I imagine the younger generations enjoy the freedoms more

Soviet citizens pre 1989 were exceptionally poor, multi occupancy of flats, long food queues. Virtually no private cars, you waited for a few decades in a queue to get one.
Security was probably good compared to Yeltsin period of criminality and mafia's. That is probably what the older citizens would compare against.

Puzzled · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:17

Sankari said:
Well yes, but 'incredibly dangerous' hasn't stopped us before. We have won two world wars that were incredibly dangerous.

At an incredible cost that the UK never really recovered from. Things will have to get a lot worse before Western leaders even consider military action.

How do you even win a war when both sides have nuclear weapons anyway, personally I think the only way to defeat Russia is from within. It needs the population to want change and we are unlikely to see that while Putin is alive.

Gypo · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:23

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496466268471406597

wildman · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:23

Sankari said:
Well yes, but 'incredibly dangerous' hasn't stopped us before. We have won two world wars that were incredibly dangerous.

If by we, you mean the UK, then you are delusional. The UK did not win the 2nd world war by itself and were it not for the US and the USSR most of Europe would still be speaking German. Also dangerous in those wars is not even close to what dangerous would mean in a full scale war with Russia today. The war would be over for both sides before it even really got off the ground and the aftermath would be cities that are unpopulable for decades with millions of corpses and millions more dying.

None of the so called wars we have had since are even remotely wars, our troops were basically fighting sandal wearing ex goat farmers and they still got their arses kicked.

thenewoc · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:24

jpaul said:
compared to eu

can't see their actual sanction policy, but makes Boris look as though he is waiting for others to do the dirty work,
I'm surprised kier didn't attack him more (bar the chinese labour contributor - whose that?)
the govt could just take out front page newspaper adds to expose (to russian peoples) that putin is richest man in the world

How rich is Putin? Putin’s wealth system explained | WTF

What the EU do and what we do are two separate things now that we've gone independent. The EU's response is also different from the US's. It would be foolish to heap all our sanctions on in one round of measures as it leaves no room for responding with further sanctions if Putin persists with his invasion of Ukraine. These things need to be re-evaluated as the situation unfolds with further measures added rather than Labours knee jerk reaction to things.

norm · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:24

Will Ukraine mount any sort of offense against the Russians or are they just going to accept it like they did with Crimea? It's not like they have any sort of chance of winning unless other countries support them.

thenewoc · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:26

norm said:
Will Ukraine mount any sort of offense against the Russians or are they just going to accept it like they did with Crimea? It's not like they have any sort of chance of winning unless other countries support them.

They're being supported with further defensive weapons whatever that means.

Nerusy · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:29

jpaul said:
How rich is Putin? Putin’s wealth system explained | WTF

The whole Putin is t he richest man spiel is a bit misleading because they ascribe all oligarch wealth to him because he either created them or allowed them to exist after Yeltsin era structure was replaced with military/intelligence structure.

I say it is misleading because the message is Putin stealing from the people of Russia for person wealth amassing but the reality is a lot more complicated. If you're interest in this topic I would recommend Putin's People by Catherine Belton ( you can ignore Trump related stuff, it's not interesting and I think she included it just to monetise Trump hysteria). The gist of it is all that wealth is a slush fund for Russia's foreign policy.

Just in case it is not clear I am not saying Putin does not like wealth or is not incredibly wealthy himself. He likes luxury and his watches but what makes rounds in the media is really just propaganda really (remember that propaganda does not need to false, true things can be used for propaganda purposes)

Tombstone · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:32

Hagar said:
Soviet citizens pre 1989 were exceptionally poor, multi occupancy of flats, long food queues. Virtually no private cars, you waited for a few decades in a queue to get one.
Security was probably good compared to Yeltsin period of criminality and mafia's. That is probably what the older citizens would compare against.

When you watch the interviews its mostly infrastructure that the older citizens complain about, they say that under Soviet rule, roads were maintained, buildings and construction were maintained and well kept and transport infrastructure ran well and was kept running. They all then go on to explain how things have gone to crap since the USSR has left, with buildings falling to pieces, roads becoming unuseable from lack of care, little construction taking place and poor levels of expenditure on infrastructure within the countries, I assume because the "new" governments are just as corrupt and self serving as things were in the past. So I'm guessing thats the main reason why they say things were better under Soviet rule.

Mr Jack · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:34

norm said:
Will Ukraine mount any sort of offense against the Russians or are they just going to accept it like they did with Crimea? It's not like they have any sort of chance of winning unless other countries support them.

Offence, no probably not, but defensively, yes they will. If Russia moves beyond the borders of the areas they already control they should expect heavy fighting.

dave28 · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:35

Sankari said:
The West could stop Russia if we really wanted to. There's no lack of military power on our side, just a lack of political will.

Our mistake was indulging Russia for so many years in the vain hope that capitalism would civilise her. That this was never going to happen should have been clear to everyone a long time ago.

And if it all kicked off big time would you and your family want to be called up to go and die to save Ukraine. Its easy to say someone else should do it

Gypo · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:36

Ukraine have mobilized their reservists and have an active military ready to defend, offensively I don't think we'll see any advancements.

If Russian forces do invade then as Jack says, all hell will break loose and those old T-72 AND T80s will be prime targets for anti tank / javelins.

413x · 23 Feb 2022 at 14:38

wildman said:
If by we, you mean the UK, then you are delusional. The UK did not win the 2nd world war by itself and were it not for the US and the USSR most of Europe would still be speaking German. Also dangerous in those wars is not even close to what dangerous would mean in a full scale war with Russia today. The war would be over for both sides before it even really got off the ground and the aftermath would be cities that are unpopulable for decades with millions of corpses and millions more dying.

None of the so called wars we have had since are even remotely wars, our troops were basically fighting sandal wearing ex goat farmers and they still got their arses kicked.

It would make ww2 look trivial.
It would be game over.

If it ever got that far not really worth worrying about. As probably wouldn't want to be around for the Aftermath