United States Grand Prix 2013, Austin - Race 18/19

I said this in the Japanese GP thread and I still think it is valid.

I have a view that Red Bull are a bit more dynamic when it comes to putting parts on the car, they have more of a gut feeling that something is right and then it is fine tuned.

As I have said before, in my opinion McLaren spend hours crunching numbers, CFD and the wind tunnel etc, the computer says the part is good and then they put it on the car only to find out that it makes no difference.
 
OldCoals said:
As I have said before, in my opinion McLaren spend hours crunching numbers, CFD and the wind tunnel etc, the computer says the part is good and then they put it on the car only to find out that it makes no difference.
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McLaren run themselves like a corporate company with lots of internal procedures/rules/regs.

So for any member of staff to do something "off the cuff", is unlikely.
This also explains why decisions are done at such a slow speed. They are "anal" about everything. Cross every 't'. Dot every 'i'. To the nth degree.

Perez has said in the press that McLaren's aims are unrealistic. They expected great results with a bad car. I agree with this 100%.

They hired a driver [Perez] with little experience and expected miracles in a poor car. And the crazy thing about this is that they are making the same mistake again, by hiring a rookie (Magnusson). No doubt, they expect Magnusson to win the title in 2014, by a landslide, in his first year.

They need a Vettel beater and as such they need to hire a driver who they believe can beat Vettel. McLaren's computers should be able to tell them that no rookie is likely to beat or get anywhere near Vettel.
 
^ I watched the 2007 American Grand Prix last night. A Rookie driving for Mclaren won the race. That is all.
 
You can be sure he'll be driving his nuts off though, he badly wants a race seat in F1 again.
 
lunarwolf said:
he won't do squat. he never managed anything while at Renault or McLaren in the past. best he can hope for is a top 10 finish
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His McLaren time was disappointing, but I'm not sure how anyone could complain about his rookie season at Renault. He out-performed the vastly more experienced Fisichella, came very close to finishing every single race in the season and even grabbed a second-place finish in torrential conditions, holding off the man who would go on to win that year's championship in a much faster car. :confused:
 
OldCoals said:
I said this in the Japanese GP thread and I still think it is valid.

I have a view that Red Bull are a bit more dynamic when it comes to putting parts on the car, they have more of a gut feeling that something is right and then it is fine tuned.

As I have said before, in my opinion McLaren spend hours crunching numbers, CFD and the wind tunnel etc, the computer says the part is good and then they put it on the car only to find out that it makes no difference.
Click to expand...

Meeting Sparky shed a lot of light on this, and its pretty much what you view.

RBR have far less manufacturing capacity than McLaren or Ferrari, which mean they can only physically make so much. The result is they only manufacture parts when they are 100% certain they will work.

Ferrari and McLaren come from a historical culture where they could make things and test them and then bin them if they didn't work. But with limited testing that doesn't work any more.

Just think, how many times have RBR brought a band new part to a race weekend and binned it because it didn't work? I genuinely cannot think of any.
 
sunama said:
They hired a driver [Perez] with little experience...
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I'd hardly call 2 years in a Sauber little experience. McLaren expected him to beat Button, which he hasn't, and by a fair margin. Also, from the sounds of it his communication with his engineers leaves a fair bit to be desired.

It doesn't add up to a great package really.
 
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sunama said:
McLaren run themselves like a corporate company with lots of internal procedures/rules/regs.

So for any member of staff to do something "off the cuff", is unlikely.
This also explains why decisions are done at such a slow speed. They are "anal" about everything. Cross every 't'. Dot every 'i'. To the nth degree.

Perez has said in the press that McLaren's aims are unrealistic. They expected great results with a bad car. I agree with this 100%.

They hired a driver [Perez] with little experience and expected miracles in a poor car. And the crazy thing about this is that they are making the same mistake again, by hiring a rookie (Magnusson). No doubt, they expect Magnusson to win the title in 2014, by a landslide, in his first year.

They need a Vettel beater and as such they need to hire a driver who they believe can beat Vettel. McLaren's computers should be able to tell them that no rookie is likely to beat or get anywhere near Vettel.
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Watch the documentary about the Technology Centre, one guy sends back over 400 casters because they don't match the colour of the floor.

The problem is when you are so deeply entrenched is these processes the more you try and dig your way out the deeper the hole gets.
 
Skeeter said:
Meeting Sparky shed a lot of light on this, and its pretty much what you view.

RBR have far less manufacturing capacity than McLaren or Ferrari, which mean they can only physically make so much. The result is they only manufacture parts when they are 100% certain they will work.

Ferrari and McLaren come from a historical culture where they could make things and test them and then bin them if they didn't work. But with limited testing that doesn't work any more.

Just think, how many times have RBR brought a band new part to a race weekend and binned it because it didn't work? I genuinely cannot think of any.
Click to expand...

This is why I think bringing Sam Michael in was a huge mistake, he is another man who is focussed on numbers and processes.
 
Skeeter said:
Meeting Sparky shed a lot of light on this, and its pretty much what you view.

RBR have far less manufacturing capacity than McLaren or Ferrari, which mean they can only physically make so much. The result is they only manufacture parts when they are 100% certain they will work.

Ferrari and McLaren come from a historical culture where they could make things and test them and then bin them if they didn't work. But with limited testing that doesn't work any more.

Just think, how many times have RBR brought a band new part to a race weekend and binned it because it didn't work? I genuinely cannot think of any.
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I hate to tell you this but you missed a lot. There are other plants further down the road(about 30 mins)
Also they have a few design guys in japan who did the flex wing ect.


McLaren is much bigger because they produce road\GT cars at the same plant.
Did he show you the Gearbox Dyno? it does look good :)
 
lunarwolf said:
he won't do squat. he never managed anything while at Renault or McLaren in the past. best he can hope for is a top 10 finish
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Yup, I generally agree. If Hulkenberg turned them down, then Heikki was their best option (unless they have any real intention of racing Valsecchi at some point in the future), but realistically he'll be fighting to make it out of Q3, and in all likelihood, won't be that much faster than he would have been in the Caterham. A nailed on 18th position on the grid at Austin, with a chance of being a bit faster at Interlagos.

He is a good, solid driver, but the chances of him doing anything with no straight-line tests or meaningful simulator work is nil. The only good thing is that he should be used to torque characteristics of the engine, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything with different engine maps and likely throttle sensitivity.
 
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deuse said:
I hate to tell you this but you missed a lot. There are other plants further down the road(about 30 mins)
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You mean the wind tunnel in Bedford.

Also they have a few design guys in japan who did the flex wing ect.
Click to expand...

Do they? Source?

McLaren is much bigger because they produce road\GT cars at the same plant.
Click to expand...

The road cars are build in the MCC while the F1 team is based in the MTC.

Did he show you the Gearbox Dyno? it does look good :)
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Unfortunately no.

Yet another rip roaring success of a post from deuse.
 
Skeeter said:
You mean the wind tunnel in Bedford.



Do they? Source?



The road cars are build in the MCC while the F1 team is based in the MTC.



Unfortunately no.

Yet another rip roaring success of a post from deuse.
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No I was just asking if you went down the road to see the other plants(that's where the Dyno is and other stuff)
because you was saying how small it was and then you went off on one(as normal). You do need to back off.
 
OldCoals said:
I said this in the Japanese GP thread and I still think it is valid.

I have a view that Red Bull are a bit more dynamic when it comes to putting parts on the car, they have more of a gut feeling that something is right and then it is fine tuned.

As I have said before, in my opinion McLaren spend hours crunching numbers, CFD and the wind tunnel etc, the computer says the part is good and then they put it on the car only to find out that it makes no difference.
Click to expand...

Or to summarise: "Better lucky than good".

Skeeter, there is no way that RBR can know with certainty that parts will work without manufacturing them. If simulators were reality we wouldn't need the cars.
 
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