VARcical Decision

Colonel_Klinck said:
You are suggesting something corrupt might have happened here? Isn't the simplest explanation the most likely? The explanation we have heard is that it was simple human error followed by panic and failing to stop play from restarting when they realised what had happened. There is no way everyone in that room was part of a conspiracy to deny the goal. That is crazy talk for anyone (not saying you) considering it.
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No I'm not suggesting there is corruption, although there have been numerous instances of corruption in other major European Leagues so you can never rule out such a thing happening over here too. Do you live in a world of extremes where if something isn't an honest mistake it must therefore be corruption? Do you not accept that there might be other potential explanations somewhere in between those two extremes?

As I said we have the admission of a recently retired PL official from barely a month ago, stating that he knowingly decided against overruling an onfield decision because he was protecting his mate. Mike Dean didn't make an honest error but neither was he corrupt, he was just looking out for a mate. Now to be clear as you seem to be jumping to conclusions, I'm not saying that has therefore happened here too but that (plus at least 2 other examples of dishonesty from officials/the pgmol that I'm aware of) is enough for me to want there to be a proper investigation. It's not simply to prove what happened is true* but also so we can see exactly how it happened and how they're going to rectify it, if only for the PGMOL & VAR to regain the trust of supporters. As a result of the standard of officiating we've seen over the past 12 months, Mike Dean's admission and this recent incident, trust in the PGMOL and VAR has surely never been lower.

*It's very important to make it clear that the explanation that's been given does not come from the PGMOL. All we've had from them is that it was a human error and they're going to investigate. While they're carrying out their investigation they've been providing off the record briefs to journalists.
 
adam cool dude said:
Before VAR plenty of people lost points because of offside goals. Both for and against.
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And the problem is, with VAR teams are still losing points because of poor officiating. There's just no excuse for it any more and we're having to put up with delays and confusion before we get the wrong decisions.

The introduction of VAR was always going to be a trade off of more accurate and consistent decisions at the expense of delays, confusion and impacting the atmosphere of the game. We got the delays, we got the confusion and we got the negative impact on the atmosphere of matches, what we haven't got is enough accurate decisions and certainly not the consistency.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
He didn't say that nothing should happen. He just said that the last line of the Liverpool statement was OTT and he's right.
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"Sorry we ****** up was enough" Neville's exact words, what is he advocating for with this statement to you, what change is he pushing for in your opinion
Colonel_Klinck said:
Sorry is all anyone is going to get here. A detailed explanation of what happened I'm sure will follow but sorry is going to feature in it.
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'Sorry is the best anyone is going to get' you release thats exactly whats wrong with this whole situation. All we want is clarification of what exactly happened as currently we have a story where details of actions taken in this instance changed from what was noted at the initial error (lines being drawn), we've had numerous ex referees state in their experience whats been said happened isn't possible, we've got numerous examples of dubious behaviour by pl referees (ignoring whats currently happening in Spain etc).

We're now 48 hours removed from the incident and there's been nothing further from the pgmol, no audio, no statements from those in positions of authority, no statement from the head of referees. Nothing.

Colonel_Klinck said:
Players retiring now have a more relevant take on todays game. Neville has shown in his comments that he is a dinosaur now, he's too long out of the game. All of them from that generation are pretty much as bad as each other.
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Which players who have recently retired would make good pundits in your opinion?
Colonel_Klinck said:
That is never going to happen. Mistakes will always happen where there is a human element.
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An objective decision such as offside shouldn't be reliant on human element to make its decision, its literally the easiest decision to make. Don't forget there's an automated system available that requires zero human interaction that was rejected due to 'reasons'.
Colonel_Klinck said:
The problem is this is now a worldwide thing. If we were to ditch VAR here that doesn't mean UEFA or FIFA games won't use it for games involving our clubs and countries. We'd be an outlier and decisions would continue to analysed and clubs would lose games due to mistakes made by refs and lineman. The reason people waned this was because of mistakes made which cost clubs games.
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Mistakes are still happening, moreso since vars introduction imo

Edit: just checked twitter and apparently they are finally going to release the audio
 
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The Telegraph are reporting that the PGMOL are set to release the audio of the incident. They've also reported on some potential changes that could be implemented as a result of the review into the fiasco. The article is paywalled so I'll bullet point them below:
  • More explicit script for Var officials to follow.
  • Lobbying for amendments to current protocols
  • Stopping someone being a Var for a fixture the day after they return from a long overseas flight.
  • Renewed calls for all conversations between officials to be aired both to match-going and armchair fans.
www.telegraph.co.uk

Howard Webb set to release audio of Var fiasco after Liverpool fury over Spurs defeat

Referees chief will bow to club’s demand for disclosure of why Luis Diaz goal was disallowed in move that may lead to overhaul of system
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
Do you really want to be using a Gary Neville tweet? The guy is an idiot. I've lost count of how many bad takes he has on what I've been watching. Sky really does have some of the very worst pundits working for it. Most are stuck in the time they played the game but the game has moved on. Just like how the Likes of Hansen were moved on for a younger generation, I would be moving on the likes of Neville, Redknapp (probably the worst of the lot) and Carragher as well.

On Liverpool's statement, it was great until this line "In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution." Whoever allowed that line to be put in needs a serious talking to, after how well Klopp handled it the club has dropped the ball there.
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G.Nev is alright isnt he, i must be an idiot as well because i find myself agreeing with most of what he says tbh :cry:

On Liverpool's statement, i feel like this is a moment. If there had been one bad decision, say the red card or the offside, i'd probably agree that it's like other games. We get an apology and we move on. But something feels really really off about those massive decisions in such a short space of time. I can't really explain it, its like a gut feeling. Like was Darren England drunk? had he only got 2 hours sleep? I'd love to know what was being said between the ref and the var ref at the time of both decisions.

Liverpool if they persevere with this could potentially make the whole thing better for everyone. We need some better transparency and processes around the decision making it seem, the level of officiating this season has been very poor. Something needs to change, this could be the moment to do it.

Edit. and it seems like we'll be getting that transcript, well this will be interesting.
 
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BaZ87 said:
The Telegraph are reporting that the PGMOL are set to release the audio of the incident. They've also reported on some potential changes that could be implemented as a result of the review into the fiasco. The article is paywalled so I'll bullet point them below:
  • More explicit script for Var officials to follow.
  • Lobbying for amendments to current protocols
  • Stopping someone being a Var for a fixture the day after they return from a long overseas flight.
  • Renewed calls for all conversations between officials to be aired both to match-going and armchair fans.
www.telegraph.co.uk

Howard Webb set to release audio of Var fiasco after Liverpool fury over Spurs defeat

Referees chief will bow to club’s demand for disclosure of why Luis Diaz goal was disallowed in move that may lead to overhaul of system
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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Re the potential changes. Is that the telegraph making assumptions or what they've been briefed? As I'm not sure how viable that last one is given any changes have to come from fifa. Unless they mean 'they' are going to lobby fifa?
 
It's worded more like them speculating on what the changes could be rather than they've been told this is what's happening, although I think the first 3 bullet points are fairly logical and will happen.
 
It's shocking like and the club is rightfully angry but it's just a mistake at the end of the day, don't know how you mitigate against that happening again in the future. You can have all the experts or ex players you want in there but if the bloke with the final say thinks he's looking for the opposite of what he's actually looking for you'll get it again. Liverpool are saying they can't just accept a sorry we'll try better next time but it's really difficult to see what else can be done. Until it happens again of course!
 
Vandle said:
Liverpool are saying they can't just accept a sorry we'll try better next time but it's really difficult to see what else can be done. Until it happens again of course!
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Well they can use the furore around the decisions and with the size of the club, i'm not sure it would work if it was Luton Town, to change some of the structures/processes around VAR.
 
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Vandle said:
It's shocking like and the club is rightfully angry but it's just a mistake at the end of the day, don't know how you mitigate against that happening again in the future. You can have all the experts or ex players you want in there but if the bloke with the final say thinks he's looking for the opposite of what he's actually looking for you'll get it again. Liverpool are saying they can't just accept a sorry we'll try better next time but it's really difficult to see what else can be done. Until it happens again of course!
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Assuming the explanation that has been briefed is correct then of course you can mitigate against it happening again. The Telegraph article points out two very simple changes that would have prevented this situation.
  1. Instead of "check complete", VAR's now have to end their review with "check complete - onside - goal awarded" or in the case of a penalty decisions "check complete - foul by number 18 - penalty for x". Something as basic as that prevents what happened happening again barring something a complete language breakdown.
  2. Changing the protocol that prevents VAR going back to a decision if the game has restarted. This hopefully would not be needed if point 1 was implemented properly but as a back-up (in the case of that language breakdown), give VAR the authority to go back in extreme circumstances to correct obvious howlers. Dale Johnson already pointed out in his weekly VAR review that it's already possible for the VAR management team (whoever they are) at Stockley Park to instruct the VAR to do this anyway.
If what's been briefed is correct then it's a major **** up but as long as it's an honest mistake then I'm not going to want to lynch Howard Webb and the VAR however learn from the mistake and make the required amendments to prevent it happening again.
 
Oh so it seems all ranting that "nothing is going to happen" was all just that and they are releasing more information. Some of you lot are just too close to this because on this occasion your team lost out. If in a couple of weeks we find out there are no changes being made then you can rant.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
Oh so it seems all ranting that "nothing is going to happen" was all just that and they are releasing more information. Some of you lot are just too close to this because on this occasion your team lost out. If in a couple of weeks we find out there are no changes being made then you can rant.
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Who has said nothing will happen or are you ranting now? Furthermore, you are aware that the reports claiming that the PGMOL will release the audio are stating they're doing so because of the pressure they've been put under to release it? I asked it in my last post to you whether you live in a world of extremes and again you seem to have jumped from one extreme to another - people calling for a full and transparent explanation doesn't equal ranting that nothing is going to happen.

It's good to know that I could go to like one of your posts, sneeze and accidentally ban you and you'll accept that I made a significant human error and I'll learn from it in future. Obviously as somebody would have replied to your post before I realised my mistake I wouldn't be able to reverse the decision either :p
 
what‘s unacceptable about the “human error” thing is that it’s not one human making the error or errors. It’s 5 humans, 5 of them. Consecutively and concurrently, with some of them making multiple errors.

1} The linesman. He puts the flag up. Incorrectly, but he knows that he’s called it offside. it never looked offside. It wasn’t even close.
2) VAR Darren England. Apparently doesn’t notice that it‘s been called offside and incorrectly calls “check complete”. Maybe because anyone with eyes can see it wasn‘t. Does this in a timeframe that would be impossible to fulfil correct procedure for checking an offside.
3) Assistant VAR Dan cook, fails to understand and correct the incorrect call from Darren England and is cooperative with england’s decision to deviate from protocol.
4) the 4th official, Michael Oliver. Has access to the same pictures the VARs are using and therefore, if their story has any truth to it, the lines showing that the goal should stand. Fails to advise the referee that he’s making a huge mistake and attempt to intervene.
5) the ref. Hooper restarts play whilst the screens in the stadium are still showing the “check in progress” message and clearly not enough time has passed for a check to actually been progressed. He knows how long VAR checks take and is wearing two watches.

all 5 of them are mic‘ed up during this, are in constant conversation and are supposed to be using language and key phrases specifically chosen to avoid this kind of scenario developing.

I’m sorry, but anyone classing this or excusing it as common human error is out of their tree. It’s malpractice and gross incompetence. At best. That’s on top of critical systemic failings.

england also breached protocol for the jones sending off, firstly that it was subjective decision that had been seen and dealt with by the referee, not a clear and obvious error, secondly that he showed the ref a still and slo mo which is only allowed for factual and positional errors.

England went completely off piste all evening it seems and his assistant and the 4th official were complicit.
 
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bingham67 said:
Apparently clubs voted against having offside technology this past weekend, same one that was used at World cup.
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Do you have a source for this? I know the PL chose not to adopt the new tech in the summer, I'm not sure if that was put to a formal vote by the clubs or not, citing that better technology was on the way however I've not seen any reports on them looking to change that midseason.
 
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