VARcical Decision

Ayahuasca said:
What else were you expecting for it to be far worse than that shambles?
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Shouting over each other, people screaming at each to shut up and listen etc.

Your post around communication is purely driven by processes in place and they are clearly not adequate. That's not the fault of that VAR team, too many things going on means the human brain misses obvious things which is probably why the tech guy realised first.

There is a reason why processes exist, to remove/minimise the risk of things like this happening. Just my 2p worth and fully expect people to disagree. :)
 
Jimbeam3678 said:
I am going against the grain here but I expected it to be far worse. Seemed to be quite calm in their decision making. None of those people needs suspending or worse :rolleyes: That, for me, at least is process failure and lack of training on these processes. They should be trained to confirm decisions back to each other and confirm all parties are in agreement before passing anything back to the onfield team.

Fans and pundits have played a contributing factor here as well, saying things like how does it take to check X I mean I could tell that in 1 second etc etc.

For me think air traffic control and you wouldn’t be far off the mark. Appreciate most will disagree with me, but there is no need to have a fall guy on this one.
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They are talking like they are talking to mates. This is the highest level of sport you can get, its so unprofessional you cant just let that go. Compare it to this from a Newcastle game :

"Craig, the lines have come out as onside, so I'm going to recommend you award the goal, the recommendation is you award the goal".

Whereas here we have "offside, goal, yea"

The difference is quite incredible.
 
Jimbeam3678 said:
For me think air traffic control and you wouldn’t be far off the mark. Appreciate most will disagree with me, but there is no need to have a fall guy on this one.
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Think it was Gary Neville saying after the game that we should accept apologies and move on. I get the that, society does seem like that recently, sorry isn't enough. But some mistakes are sackable, if that isn't a large enough mistake, i dont know what is. Ref's shouldn't be immune to losing their job.
 
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Jimbeam3678 said:
I am going against the grain here but I expected it to be far worse. Seemed to be quite calm in their decision making. None of those people needs suspending or worse :rolleyes: That, for me, at least is process failure and lack of training on these processes. They should be trained to confirm decisions back to each other and confirm all parties are in agreement before passing anything back to the onfield team.

Fans and pundits have played a contributing factor here as well, saying things like how does it take to check X I mean I could tell that in 1 second etc etc.

For me think air traffic control and you wouldn’t be far off the mark. Appreciate most will disagree with me, but there is no need to have a fall guy on this one.
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I'm not sure you get prizes for being calm while making an absolute hash of a decision :p Unfortunately when the computer guy tells them they ****ed up, they were anything but calm. They had the chance to stop the game, they were being told to do so by the VAR management team (Dale Johnson has confirmed "Oli" was that, not Michael Oliver) but they panicked. Their performance was terrible and while you never want to see people sacked, if you're not competent enough to carry out your job then you shouldn't be in that job, particularly when your decisions have the potential to be worth many millions of pounds. I can't remember where I read it now but Darren England has been involved in a few controversial decisions before and I read that his latest mistake was confirmed by the independent panel that judge refs just days before the weekends match.

I agree about process failings though and it's why Liverpool were right to not be happy with the PGMOL's initial statement putting it down to human error - yes the VAR (and his assistant) made pretty huge mistakes in not realising the lino twice indicates offside and the screen they're looking at states that the decision was offside however the communication process was pretty shambolic and it does create a possibility where miscommunication can happen if the VAR isn't fully paying attention.
 
Trusty said:
Think it was Gary Neville saying after the game that we should accept apologies and move on. I get the that, society does seem like that recently, sorry isn't enough. But some mistakes are sackable, if that isn't a large enough mistake, i dont know what is. Ref's shouldn't be immune to losing their job.
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Did you read any of my post?
BaZ87 said:
I'm not sure you get prizes for being calm while making an absolute hash of a decision :p Unfortunately when the computer guy tells them they ****ed up, they were anything but calm. They had the chance to stop the game, they were being told to do so by the VAR management team (Dale Johnson has confirmed "Oli" was that, not Michael Oliver) but they panicked. Their performance was terrible and while you never want to see people sacked, if you're not competent enough to carry out your job then you shouldn't be in that job, particularly when your decisions have the potential to be worth many millions of pounds. I can't remember where I read it now but Darren England has been involved in a few controversial decisions before and I read that his latest mistake was confirmed by the independent panel that judge refs just days before the weekends match.

I agree about process failings though and it's why Liverpool were right to not be happy with the PGMOL's initial statement putting it down to human error - yes the VAR (and his assistant) made pretty huge mistakes in not realising the lino twice indicates offside and the screen they're looking at states that the decision was offside however the communication process was pretty shambolic and it does create a possibility where miscommunication can happen if the VAR isn't fully paying attention
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How can you blame anyone when they haven’t been given the adequate training or processes in place? They have followed protocol for better or worse missed an obvious error (this happens in all industries) where existing known processes would have prevented it from happening. You can’t blame the guys for lack process.

Sure if it turns out there was a process in place and they didn’t follow them, then sack the *******

Edit the graphics on screen are not shown for the operators either if I understood your post correctly.
 
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It was unforgivable, there has to be a protocol that on every single decision VAR is involved with and before play is allowed to resume that all parties (or at the very least the VAR team and the on field team) have reached the same conclusive verdict with spoken confirmation, "VAR - Offside", "ONFIELD - Offside" for example. That is not difficult to identify and implement from day 1.

The only thing that is surprising is this type of mistake has not happened more.
 
How are the words check complete in any way a useful way of communicating the actual outcome of that check!

The ref needs to take a lot of blame for hearing check complete and restarting the game, surely his response should have been okay and outcome of that completed check is?
 
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Jimbeam3678 said:
Did you read any of my post?

How can you blame anyone when they haven’t been given the adequate training or processes in place? They have followed protocol for better or worse missed an obvious error (this happens in all industries) where existing known processes would have prevented it from happening. You can’t blame the guys for lack process.

Sure if it turns out there was a process in place and they didn’t follow them, then sack the *******
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There can be a need for better training and processes and it still be a complete **** show from the VAR. No amount of process or training excuses the VAR for not paying attention to what's happening when the goal was being scored. The lino clearly indicates that it's offside before Diaz puts the ball into the net and then confirms the offside once Diaz scores. Furthermore, the screen that the VAR is looking at when applying the offside lines clearly states that they're checking a disallowed goal for offside. For the VAR to not know that the original decision was offside is nothing short of negligence.

There needs to be better processes put in place so that in the event of this level of incompetence in future, we don't end up with the same outcome.
 
Trusty said:
Yes. I just taking issue with the "no need for a fall guy" bit. I think sometimes there needs to be a fall guy/sacking. I'm not sure how that's a process failure, suppose it is, but you are literally holding their hands like babies if thats a process failure.
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At a basic level when the pressure is on people make stupid mistakes. Passengers on a plane panicking has shown they can struggle to open emergency doors. It’s simple but your mind can get overloaded.

In the offiside scenario if there was a process which meant they had to confirm back the original decision and what the final decision should be then this would not have happened. Humans make mistakes, so surely it makes sense to put in place processes to protect your employees from making them.

That’s why I like what Klopp said on match of the day.

As I said I don’t expect people to agree just putting an alternative opinion across.
 
BaZ87 said:
There can be a need for better training and processes and it still be a complete **** show from the VAR. No amount of process or training excuses the VAR for not paying attention to what's happening when the goal was being scored. The lino clearly indicates that it's offside before Diaz puts the ball into the net and then confirms the offside once Diaz scores. Furthermore, the screen that the VAR is looking at when applying the offside lines clearly states that they're checking a disallowed goal for offside. For the VAR to not know that the original decision was offside is nothing short of negligence.
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Maybe they were paying attention, but looking at a previous incident? Who knows?

Sort of covered my thoughts in my reply to Trusty.
 
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