Vote on smoking ban in public places

Vanilla said:
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The bill is being brought in to protect the bar workers who are often young, work long hours and have no say in the running of the business. People see only as far as themselves for the most part but i'm not bothered about that, i'm bothered that almost no one sees the personal loss in terms of civil rights when it comes to themselves. We've lost more than we've gained.

This is all hidden under a veil of concern for health in a day and age when they've even linked 'that new car smell' to cancer.
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A 'veil of concern'? What do they have to gain from this? I suppose popularity but looking at that BBC poll with an 80% majority supporting the ban I would just call it democracy in action.

Besides, when did anyone have the 'right' to harm other people?
 
Woo, yay for the ban.

Reasons for the ban:
Most non-smokers don't like the smell that invades our space and clothing, and its not good for us either. But its your right to smoke? Yep, outside now. The majority is happy, the minority isn't. But thats what politics is all about surely?

Of course. But..... why shouldn't the owner decide? I don't want to have to chose which social group to go out with on my nights out. I'm sure all the smokers I know won't exactly make a fuss of the matter. Wow, walking to the door!!! It seems to be a case of arguing for the sake of arguing on this issue.

"I want to steal your property, its my right!"
"The majority don't want that, shunned!"
A completely over the top analogy, I'm fully aware of it being ridiculous so don't flame me for it. It does however show how situations like this work.

The only arguement against it I can see is people will smoke at home more possibly infront of their children.... which is a fair point.
 
Vanilla said:
This was the case in America but i've yet to see anything regarding closures in Ireland, a much better match for the UK with regards to 'What's going to happen'.
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The RIA ignores the impact that the smoking ban has had on the licensed trade in Ireland. Retail alcohol sales have not been affected mainly because of the growth in the off-trade sales as people choose to drink and smoke at home. According to the Vintners' Federation of Ireland (VFI), rural pubs have been worst affected by the ban. The VFI is aware of just over 200 licensed premises that have closed since the introduction of the smoking ban in March 2004. According to the CSO in Ireland, 7,600 jobs were lost in the hospitality sector in 2004. This equates to 150 jobs per week. There is no reason to believe that the impact in England and Wales would be any less.

The same impact would result in the closure of approximately 1,000 pubs. Taking into account the ban on smoking in public places in Scotland, an estimated 33,600 jobs in pubs and bars in the UK would be lost as a result of closures and decreased trade. Furthermore, 5.9% fewer jobs would be created in our sector, which has always been a major source of employment opportunities for a wide range of people of different ages and skill levels
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Some figures taken from the Partial regulatory impact assessment
By the Select Committee on Health.

Stan :)
 
punky_munky said:
A 'veil of concern'? What do they have to gain from this? I suppose popularity but looking at that BBC poll with an 80% majority supporting the ban I would just call it democracy in action.

Besides, when did anyone have the 'right' to harm other people?
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Votes. The majority do not always dictate the best law.

The majority of people want to pay less taxes, want less benefits to be paid, want out of the EU, etc. The rule of the majority leads to mob rule and we all saw what happened to piggy in Lord of the Flies ;)
 
Nitefly said:
The only arguement against it I can see is people will smoke at home more possibly infront of their children.... which is a fair point.
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Yeah, this concerns me - stick the duty up a few quid? I can imagine an "at home" ban being a right can of worms that would lead onto dietary legislation and a right old mess - is campaigning the only way?
 
Vanilla said:
Votes. The majority do not always dictate the best law.

The majority of people want to pay less taxes, want less benefits to be paid, want out of the EU, etc. The rule of the majority leads to mob rule and we all saw what happened to piggy in Lord of the Flies ;)
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Very true on that point.

To counter I would point out that "the majority" would also profess to be in favour of banning drunk drivers/ harsh sentenses for killers/ better NHS/ better Government/ protection of children etc. etc.

"Majority" isn't always wrong by definition.
 
UOcUK Poopscoop said:
Oops, perhaps I misunderstood your thread after re reading. :)
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I did wonder about that :)

I respect the fact that you have at least, tried to reason out a coherent argument - unlike others.

You are right in your assumption that I will never accept that a total ban is necessary - I do however accept that things cannot go on as they are at present and I think that if you were to ask smokers, the majority of them would be happy with some sort of compromise i.e. facilities provided (where practical) for smokers to partake in comfort without unduly inconveniencing non-smokers.

Stan :)
 
Vanilla said:
Votes. The majority do not always dictate the best law.

The majority of people want to pay less taxes, want less benefits to be paid, want out of the EU, etc. The rule of the majority leads to mob rule and we all saw what happened to piggy in Lord of the Flies ;)
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Fair enough. I suppose it comes down to wether or not you think this ban is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing.



As for the other point of the economy and the pub business, it is pretty likely that there will be major job cuts and closures but for want of not sounding like a religious nut, those profits 'immoral'?

Personally I think it's an acceptable loss.
 
Vanilla said:
Thanks for the info! Not many places closed really
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You're welcome :)

It doesn't sound like much but I think that the fact that based on these figures, 33,600 jobs could be lost in the UK is quite alarming.

Stan :)
 
UOcUK Poopscoop said:
Very true on that point.

To counter I would point out that "the majority" would also profess to be in favour of banning drunk drivers/ harsh sentenses for killers/ better NHS/ better Government.

"Majority" isn't always wrong by definition.
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It doesn't matter who you vote for..........






Government always get's in :)
 
duc999 said:
Yeah they'll just spend it on clearing up the victims of alcohol abuse, drink driving, counselling drunks, drink related disease and drink related domestic and street violence.

Sounds nasty stuff perhaps it should be banned from all public places for sake of the health of our children ? ;)
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Indeed.
 
Chronos-X said:
What would the facilities be? :)
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A separate room with no bar (so that staff are not affected) which is well ventilated and sealed off from the rest of the bar (possibly by a double door or suchlike).

Obviously not all pubs would be able to provide such a facility but I feel that where this is practical, there is no reason to deny smokers the facility to indulge their habit without good reason.

Stan :)
 
Bigstan said:
It doesn't sound like much but I think that the fact that based on these figures, 33,600 jobs could be lost in the UK is quite alarming.
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Yeh it is, but it the same with job/industry these days, those people will have to just move on and move in to other sectors. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
 
Brum Man said:
Yeh it is, but it the same with job/industry these days, those people will have to just move on and move in to other sectors. It's happened before and it'll happen again.
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I realise that the job market and industry in general is in a constant state of flux and that things change but I do feel that the people who will be forced to "move on" would be justifiably aggrieved that they were forced to do so because of ill-considered legislation passed by the government.

Stan :)
 
I don't smoke. I will never smoke.

However, the Government has stopped doing its job and has started to decide what we can do. Next comes what we can say, oh hang on, they are starting to do that now aren't they?

What Tony Blair and his Cronies are doing is just pandering to the whim of the media.

Nasty terrorists? No problem ID Cards will stop that!
Fox hunting? Let's stop that is is so cruel!
Smoking. So, so bad let's take that away as well.

See where this is going? We know smoking is bad for you. It causes cancer amongst other nasties. Hey laser printer toner is a carcinogen as well, sahll we band that? Or what about EMR? That can cause cancer? Mobile phones? Cars?

Smoking is bad for you. Smoking is expensive and makes you smell. So? Exposure to passive smoke is bad, but how bad compared to the world of nasty chemicals and cancer causing elements we live in?

But the smokers have a right to enjoy a pint, pie and a fag. Non smokers have the same right to enjoy clean air. One pub can cater for the smokers, and if non smokers don't like it go to a pub where the landlord has banned smoking.

Who is going to police this ban? Not the police they can't keep up with proper crime. Citizens arrests then.

Listening to the unclued up swallow what the media says without question Joe Public is a bad idea. Full stop.

So we have soon-to-be mandatory ID cards at great cost to us and of no use in stopping terrorists. We have a ban on smoking that has been over hyped. What is next?

Beer? Sex? Extreme sports? The same argument for banning stuff is what applies to civil liberties. People say "If I haven't done anything wrong what have I to hide?" well the goverment can chnage the goal posts. SO it's smoking that is the big bad wolf but what if the next thing they ban is something you enjoy?

Makes you think.

Oh and if they could do the Thought Police from 1984 then Labour probably would!!!

I now need to calm down before I go to bed :mad:
 
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