VR - What are your thoughts?

[ElliotHand]

Totally agree with Sean, reminds me of the arguments I was having with xbone fanboys at work before the new consoles came out. Their primary critisisms were the ps4's controller but they didn't realise it had been changed and hadn't tried it.

I'm excited to try VR, I remember being blown away by the basic arcade versions of the 90's and so will be interesting to see what they are able to do with it in the 20's and beyond.

Has there been much talk of it's real world applications outside of gaming / entertainment? I imagine it'd be a great tool for training people to do various jobs etc.

 

[Seanspeed]

Some people can cope with VR in non sims, but most can't as it is not really designed for it.

It's definitely different from person to person. And it's not static or black and white for any one person, either. Some people are susceptible to certain things, but fine with others, and many people note that they can build tolerance, from small amounts to near total immunity.

But it's also very app dependent. Many existing games that have been translated to VR don't work well because they weren't mean to be used like that. Hell, even some lower budget experiences designed for VR still don't work well because they were still using bad design practices(like head bobbing, allowing strafing, acceleration is too instant, etc).

Many developers have been finding comfortable compromises with regards to movement. In fact, 3rd person experiences have been shown to be one of the easier ways to avoid nausea, using careful camera controls.

Physical movement is the best way to basically completely get rid of it. Bit more of a tricky subject, but there's some cool solutions to deal with being limited with space, though I agree this will be a more niche part of VR.

And of course further improvements to latency and performance will reduce how susceptible people are to this problem even more.

All in all, I think while flight/race sims will definitely be the most comprehensively comfortable experiences out of the box, I don't think it's fair to say that nothing else will be comfortable.

 

[Seanspeed]

Totally agree with Sean, reminds me of the arguments I was having with xbone fanboys at work before the new consoles came out. Their primary critisisms were the ps4's controller but they didn't realise it had been changed and hadn't tried it.

I'm excited to try VR, I remember being blown away by the basic arcade versions of the 90's and so will be interesting to see what they are able to do with it in the 20's and beyond.

Has there been much talk of it's real world applications outside of gaming / entertainment? I imagine it'd be a great tool for training people to do various jobs etc.

Well one of the big applications for VR is in the medical sector. It's already been used for a time for training in surgery, but it has many real or potential benefits for patients. It's already successfully being used to treat sufferers of PTSD or extreme anxiety. It is being used to help vision problems. And there's lots of studies underway using VR to improve all kinds of things like balance issues with Parkinsons, or stroke victims in rehab to improve lost mobility in limbs and whatnot.

One cool new use for it that's popped up in the past couple years is training quarterbacks in the NFL. Many of the top teams are jumping on this right now, as it has a lot of benefits in training awareness and situational decision-making, which is absolutely crucial in American football. Basically, they throw the QB in a 1st person sort of view, like they'd see on the field, and they have simulations run plays, while the QB learns to dissect defensive schemes and follow his receivers routes and everything.

 

[FoxEye]

I think playing certain 3rd person games will be very compelling. Like I said, VR wont be for everybody, but I'm sure that it will appeal to quite a few people that will want to play certain styles of games with VR. Why wouldn't they? You haven't given the slightest reasoning for why you think it's not a good idea. I'm guessing you're just going by some gut instinct that tells you that, but I think if you understood how VR worked a bit better, you'd be better able to imagine why it could actually be quite awesome.

I was talking about RTS and RPGs, so with those in mind I'll give you two reasons.

1) It is totally unnecessary for playing RTS and even more so party-based RPGs. How it could possibly enhance those genres I have no idea. Do you want to be a floating observer in 3D space zooming around your characters for no discernible reason? That, more than any other use of VR, sounds like 100% gimmick. These genres are not about what you think they're about. Their core gameplay is strategy. Something VR has very little to offer.

2) At top-down VR view (say in an RTS) is again going to cause sickness, is it not, as the brain processes two conflicting inputs. Am I looking down (my eyes say yes), or am I sitting in a chair looking forwards (my inner ear thinks so). Isn't this similar to your roller-coaster example, which you yourself said was a bad use of VR?

Complex subject, but again, nothing here is anything close to what you're thinking. People have been using VR headsets using gamepads for a couple years now. Not being able to see the controller is hardly an issue. Nor do you *need* motion controls. People who use kb/m while in VR sometimes have problems obviously, and that's a legit issue. Not an impossible one to solve, but right now, it is difficult.

No, actually it's you not understanding me. I talked about a flight sim with a virtual cockpit. A simple XBox/PS controller is not enough. There are switches all around you.

The normal way to flip these switches in flight sims is a keyboard shortcut. In VR land, you can't see your keyboard. But you can have a virtual cockpit and see the switches all around you. But then you have the problem of motion tracking being necessary to use these VR controls.

Since most people don't look at their XBox/PS controllers while they play games, I'm not sure why you thought I was throwing that up as a sticking point... It's beyond obvious that people would be able to use those controllers, and racing wheels or pedals without problem.

But flight sims - a prime candidate for VR - are going to require some very elaborate and expensive setups to give a good experience. They will definitely need motion tracking. Or I suppose voice activated controls could do it, if you don't mind talking to your sim.

As for the motion tracking technology, that's quite advanced already. I recommend reading up about Oculus' Constellation tracking system and especially Valve's Lighthouse tracking technology. Really impressive stuff, with nearly impeccable 1:1, ultra low latency tracking capabilities.

Not going to be able to use a flight sim yoke with this one...



That looks like a possibility. But we're talking a lot of expensive gadgetry now, and lots of things to put on/wear. This is a big sell to most people.

Even hard core flight simmers are going to look at that and have second thoughts.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Not going to be able to use a flight sim yoke with this one...



That looks like a possibility. But we're talking a lot of expensive gadgetry now, and lots of things to put on/wear. This is a big sell to most people.

Even hard core flight simmers are going to look at that and have second thoughts.

You can use a flight stick with both of those headsets. The top one is oculus and the hand controls will only be used in certain games that have support built in. For a flight sim all you would do is use the headset and a joystick without the hand controls.

 

[Gregster]

I don't get why people are jumping on people who have no wish to buy into VR. After all, it is there opinion and not conclusive to everyone else. If Foxeye and others are not interested, cool. I personally am and will be getting either the OR or Vive but his opinion isn't making me not want it.

Chill out darlings

 

[Seanspeed]

I was talking about RTS and RPGs, so with those in mind I'll give you two reasons.

1) It is totally unnecessary for playing RTS and even more so party-based RPGs. How it could possibly enhance those genres I have no idea. Do you want to be a floating observer in 3D space zooming around your characters for no discernible reason? That, more than any other use of VR, sounds like 100% gimmick. These genres are not about what you think they're about. Their core gameplay is strategy. Something VR has very little to offer.

2) At top-down VR view (say in an RTS) is again going to cause sickness, is it not, as the brain processes two conflicting inputs. Am I looking down (my eyes say yes), or am I sitting in a chair looking forwards (my inner ear thinks so). Isn't this similar to your roller-coaster example, which you yourself said was a bad use of VR?

1) Since when does something need to be necessary to be compelling? That is a strange argument. What it adds is a perspective of actually being there, seeing things play out like it's actually there in front of you. Again, obviously you don't quite understand this because you haven't tried VR, but seeing 3D environments in true scale and depth is quite amazing. Also, being able to look around and up in an isometric perspective is quite cool, whereas normally you'd have to scroll over to see something outside of your normal straight forward perspective.

But you'll just call that a gimmick, right. It's not, but regardless, we can go further and incorporate actual dedicated motion controls for these types of games. Obviously this will work best for games built with this control scheme in mind and not existing games that are designed to function with tons of hotkeys and all. Either way, the VR perspective is already compelling and there *are* ways of having dedicated VR controls on top of that.

2) No, it is not anything like a rollercoaster unless you designed a game to be like that. It's mismatches in movement and acceleration that tend to cause problems. As for the looking down bit, it's been shown that looking slightly down is an entirely comfortable position. Try it. Look straight forward, then tilt your head down a bit. Obviously if look too far down it becomes less comfortable, but it's one of the things that makes a somewhat isometric camera perspective in VR entirely workable and comfortable.

No, actually it's you not understanding me. I talked about a flight sim with a virtual cockpit. A simple XBox/PS controller is not enough. There are switches all around you.

The normal way to flip these switches in flight sims is a keyboard shortcut. In VR land, you can't see your keyboard. But you can have a virtual cockpit and see the switches all around you. But then you have the problem of motion tracking being necessary to use these VR controls.

Since most people don't look at their XBox/PS controllers while they play games, I'm not sure why you thought I was throwing that up as a sticking point... It's beyond obvious that people would be able to use those controllers, and racing wheels or pedals without problem.

But flight sims - a prime candidate for VR - are going to require some very elaborate and expensive setups to give a good experience. They will definitely need motion tracking. Or I suppose voice activated controls could do it, if you don't mind talking to your sim.

People currently play flight and space sims with fancy cockpit setups and everything already.

Obviously if something involves like super duper complicated controls that need multiple keypresses to swap functionality of their existing controls, that will be difficult. Not impossible to deal with, but problematic. In this case, I'd say that people would just be better off with flight sims that don't require such extreme complications, like the ones people use right now in VR.

Nobody ever claimed that VR would be suitable for every single app ever. But I think most genres could benefit in some way, though in many instances, ideally you'd want VR-specific game design priorities. It is no secret that you cant just tack VR support into any existing application and make it work fine.

 

[Seanspeed]

I don't get why people are jumping on people who have no wish to buy into VR. After all, it is there opinion and not conclusive to everyone else. If Foxeye and others are not interested, cool. I personally am and will be getting either the OR or Vive but his opinion isn't making me not want it.

Chill out darlings

If people wanted to chime in just to say they aren't interested, whatever. Completely harmless. But FoxEye is going well beyond that. He is making claims as to what VR can and cannot do, what sort of problems it has, and asserting that he knows what other people wont like about VR. He is mistaken in many, many of these things and I'm merely trying to squash the misinformation he's been trying to rampantly spread since the thread's beginning.

 

[Catanonia]

I use voice attack for my sims as that is the future. Easy to program and voice activate everything. Pedals / Steering Wheel / throttle are easy with VR on ya noggin.

As said great for sim's, not so great for other titles, but getting better.

There is a lot of mis information out there as with most things people don't try or can't get on with. Chill all, VR is here to stay and we get to enjoy it as it develops.

 

[Seanspeed]

I use voice attack for my sims as that is the future. Easy to program and voice activate everything. Pedals / Steering Wheel / throttle are easy with VR on ya noggin.

As said great for sim's, not so great for other titles, but getting better.

With the headsets all looking to have standardized microphones that will be the same quality and position for everybody, I'd definitely like to see more voice controlled stuff in VR in general. That's like half the battle right there when it comes to the usual problems of voice control.

 

[FoxEye]

People currently play flight and space sims with fancy cockpit setups and everything already.

Are you deliberately missing the point? They can /see/ the buttons on those "fancy cockpit setups".

You put a VR headset on and... oh noes! You can't see **** except the VR. Try flipping the switches now, without being able to see them!

I'm really not sure if we're even on the same page here.

 

[Gregster]

I use voice attack for my sims as that is the future. Easy to program and voice activate everything. Pedals / Steering Wheel / throttle are easy with VR on ya noggin.

As said great for sim's, not so great for other titles, but getting better.

There is a lot of mis information out there as with most things people don't try or can't get on with. Chill all, VR is here to stay and we get to enjoy it as it develops.

I use Voice Attack for Elite Dangerous.

Voice Attack + A decent VR headset + Joystick and throttle + Elite Dangerous = love wee

 

[Seanspeed]

Are you deliberately missing the point? They can /see/ the buttons on those "fancy cockpit setups".

You put a VR headset on and... oh noes! You can't see **** except the VR. Try flipping the switches now, without being able to see them!

I'm really not sure if we're even on the same page here.

I meant to say 'in VR' at the end of the sentence, sorry.

Lots of people already playing flight sims in VR.

 

[Catanonia]

All of those hardware switches other than flight controls become redundant in VR because as has been said, they cannot be seen unless they are easy to feel.

But then that is where VoiceAttack ($8) comes in with voice activation for any app / game support.

Look at the switch virtually and say "activate" or say "set cockpit lights on"

So if anything it will save people vast amounts of buying all these peripherals. (Shame for those that already have them)

The only flight sim people that will not like VR are those with mini cockpits built in their garages, but then they are a different class of gamer.

 

[Catanonia]

I use Voice Attack for Elite Dangerous.

Voice Attack + A decent VR headset + Joystick and throttle + Elite Dangerous = love wee

Me too with butt kickers for added effect in my Obutto rig.

 

[D3K]

Hey guys, if VR can't work with every single genre of game, or input method, we have to abandon it. K? Once done, we have to **** on it and say I told you so to all the enthusiasts.

 

[FoxEye]

But you'll just call that a gimmick, right. It's not, but regardless, we can go further and incorporate actual dedicated motion controls for these types of games. Obviously this will work best for games built with this control scheme in mind and not existing games that are designed to function with tons of hotkeys and all. Either way, the VR perspective is already compelling and there *are* ways of having dedicated VR controls on top of that.

I'm curious as to what you mean, here.

Give an example of a dedicated motion control for an isometric, turn-based game.

And please elaborate how an isometric, turn-based game would benefit from VR + motion controls.

I'm curious because, as I said before, the point of these games and RTS games is not "being there" or seeing from the PoV of a single unit. The point of these games is strategy, in the case of RTS lots of units with large-scale battles, where wasting time looking around from the PoV of your soldiers /will/ be a gimmick.

And in the case of party-based RPGs... well, you know that lately they've been going back to the traditional 2D painted background ala Baldur's Gate? Because the compelling part of these games isn't 3D, it's story-telling and strategic gameplay.

See if you'd just say that VR is going to revolutionise sims, I'd have no problem at all.

What bugs me is the 100% adherence that VR will be great for all genres. Yes, you conceded that it won't be used by everyone, but you still think there is room for VR in genres where it will do diddly squat. Like iso TBS, like RTS...

I wonder... do you see VR replacing television sets? Do you think at any point in the near future, people will want to don VR headsets instead of sitting in front of the telly?

 

[Gregster]

Me too with butt kickers for added effect in my Obutto rig.

I had to look up what Buttkickers were and looks pretty cool. Does it work well?

 

[andybird123]

I had to take my buttkicker back off as it makes half the house rumble, lol, looking at turning the garage in to a cinema/games room so I can have it on a concrete floor with some padding

 

[Zeed]

You guys are missing main thing here... VR PORN