Weekend Football Thread *spoilers*

[HangTime]

Current injuries aren't too bad, we are down to only 6 now. You can see the history here though: http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/clubs/1/arsenal_injuries.html

MU have had a lot of injury problems at the back in recent weeks but prior to that not quite so bad. Arsenal has consistently been up near the top of the table with around 7-9 injuries although some of those not so worrisome. Back then it was stacking around forwards/wideboys like Eduardo, RvP, Nasri, Bendtner, Vela, Walcott and Rosicknote. Plus 1st and 2nd choice keepers of course.

Anyway I'm not looking to get into a debate about who has the worst injuries, Arsenal haven't been able to field my first choice XI for around 3.5 years now so it's something they have to learn to live with.

A game in hand is worth less than 3pts on average and I still think Arsenal have an inferior squad compared to Chelsea. Chelsea have 2 proven guys in Drogba and Anelka compared to Arsenal who basically haven't got any that have played say 8 games on the bounce through the middle. In theory they've got Eduardo, who hasn't really got back into the swing of things since his leg break, Bendtner who isn't in the calibre of those 2 due to come back in around 3 weeks, Vela who flatters to deceive, Walcott again not in their league, and Arshavin who while a great player isn't really an out-and-out striker.

In goal Cech is better than Almunia (current drop in form aside), Chelsea have superior backup centrehalves in Alex and Ivanovic, then in midfield they've got Essien, Lampard, Ballack, Cole, Deco and Malouda who are easily a match for Fabregas, Rosicky, Nasri, Song, Ramsey and Wilshere (or Denilson and Diaby if you like).

Yes Chelsea stand to lose Drogba, Essien, Kalou and Mikel to the ACoN, but they have the squad to live with it, if they get any serious injuries around that time they will just get the chequebook out.

 

[jakeke]

Arsenal probably don't have a squad to match Chelsea's but that kind of goes without saying given the 2 levels of investment, Chelsea's squad are mostly getting older and slower though with Arsenal's improving all the time, but who gives a damn, this transfer ban will just disappear and they'll buy a new squad over the next few years. It's a joke

 

[bloodline76]

I don't think you understand how logic and theory works.

He's not saying, "if a player is in the national team they are world class", as by that logic, there would be something like 400 world class centremids in the world. He's saying that if you are NOT in your national team, then you CAN'T be world class, as by definition there must be better players in your position.

Being in your national team does NOT prove that there is nobody better than you. But being left out of the national team DOES prove that there ARE better players (obviously assuming that the best team is picked, ignoring any managerial preferences etc).

Or to look at it another way, being left out of the Spain team means that there must be at least two better central midfielders in the world, and possibly more. Whereas being picked for Wales (or Spain, or Brazil, or anyone else) proves nothing on the world stage, as you aren't competing for places with players from other nationalities.

You my friend are missing the point. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote and see that was my point that you cant be considered a world class player just because you start for your national team.

You also contradict yourself by saying that you arent world class for starting in your national team then go on and say being left out of the spainish first eleven you are not world class as two players are better than you or more.

So by YOUR LOGIC you cant have more than two world class players in a national team. Maybe you could have three players on an equal level of ability but tactics force only two can play? No surely not by YOUR LOGIC.

So if Spain started playing with three midfielders and fab started playing would he then be considered a worldclass player?

 

[Tummy]

How can you be considered World Class if you're not in the starting eleven for your national side?

Surely the national side, is a way to see the best players from that nation. If you can't get in to that starting eleven, there are better players then you.

If you're in that starting eleven, there might well be better players then you in the World, but maybe not in that country.

 

[bloodline76]

How can you be considered World Class if you're not in the starting eleven for your national side?

Surely the national side, is a way to see the best players from that nation. If you can't get in to that starting eleven, there are better players then you.

If you're in that starting eleven, there might well be better players then you in the World, but maybe not in that country.

Because there arent only 11 world class players in each country. If you are going by ability from the entire world then the world class would be the best people. Which means that you can still be world class if you arent in the starting 11 of your national team.

Say you have 5% of the players in the world are considered world class. Then the major leagues Italy, Spain, England and France are going to have more players in that top percentage than smaller countries as they play and compete against the best.

So believe it or not you will get people from those countries that will have more than 11 players that are considered world class. So although you may not be in your national teams starting line you could still be classed as world class. And you cant say if there is someone better than you then you cant be considered world class as then there would only be 11 world class players.

Understand?

 

[Tummy]

Because there arent only 11 world class players in each country. If you are going by ability from the entire world then the world class would be the best people. Which means that you can still be world class if you arent in the starting 11 of your national team.

Say you have 5% of the players in the world are considered world class. Then the major leagues Italy, Spain, England and France are going to have a greater to have more players in that top percentage than smaller countries.

So believe it or not you will get people from those countries that will have more than 11 players that are considered world class. So although you may not be in your national teams starting line you could still be classed as world class. And you cant say if there is someone better than you then you cant be considered world class as then there would only be 11 world class players.

Understand?

If you're not making your national sides first 11, it means that in that postition they're are better players then you, how can you be "world class" but warming the bench internationally?

I don't think been a national player makes you world class, but it makes you a cut above a lot of other players of your nationality.

Then of those International players there are a few that can be considered World Class.

The word is thrown about way too much.

Understand?

 

[Rich_L]

I would say a national side though is picked on the basis of a team playing together, a 'world-class' player might be on the bench for a national team because the system they play doesn't suit - i.e. playing 4-5-1 you might have two 'world-class' strikers that would both play in a 4-4-2, or start for any team in the world but the coach prefers the former, so one takes the bench.

Seems like an awful lot of fuss about a silly definition though, I think 'world-class' should be the players *everyone* buys first in Football Manager - that would be indisputable

 

[bloodline76]

If you're not making your national sides first 11, it means that in that postition they're are better players then you, how can you be "world class" but warming the bench internationally?

I don't think been a national player makes you world class, but it makes you a cut above a lot of other players of your nationality.

Then of those International players there are a few that can be considered World Class.

The word is thrown about way too much.

Understand?

Did you even bother reading what I wrote? I never said being in the national team makes you a world class player.

You cant just take the national first team players then say out of those these are world class. This is like talking to DM

I would say a national side though is picked on the basis of a team playing together, a 'world-class' player might be on the bench for a national team because the system they play doesn't suit - i.e. playing 4-5-1 you might have two 'world-class' strikers that would both play in a 4-4-2, or start for any team in the world but the coach prefers the former, so one takes the bench.

Seems like an awful lot of fuss about a silly definition though, I think 'world-class' should be the players *everyone* buys first in Football Manager - that would be indisputable

Exactly and I always take Fabregas.

 

[Tummy]

It's just biased fans with rose tinted glasses on that complain their player who can't make the national first eleven is still world class.

Players that start for the national side are the best players in that country? The players on the bench aren't automatically bad, but they're not getting in to the first eleven for a reason. If you're playing 4 - 5 -1 then that one forward you pick is better then the one you leave on the bench? It might not be better by much, but it's enough to leave you them on the bench.

You have to be playing regularly internatioanlly to even be considered world class, even though the term is used to often.

 

[Tummy]

Did you even bother reading what I wrote? I never said being in the national team makes you a world class player.

You cant just take the national first team players then say out of those these are world class. This is like talking to DM

You're missing the point, the national players are the best players from that country?

OH NO THAT GUY ON THE BENCH IS ACTUALLY BETTER THEN THEM ALL. Which is why he's on the bench

 

[Tummy]

You can't be "world class" and not be the best in your country?

 

[bloodline76]

You're missing the point, the national players are the best players from that country?

OH NO THAT GUY ON THE BENCH IS ACTUALLY BETTER THEN THEM ALL. Which is why he's on the bench

Its a shame you dont read any other peoples opinions even when they explain themselves.

So you are saying there are only 11 players in each country that are considered world class?

Being world class and being the best player are different subjects.

You can edit your posts you know, then you dont have to do three different posts

 

[Tummy]

Its a shame you dont read any other peoples opinions even when they explain themselves.

So you are saying there are only 11 players in each country that are considered world class?

Being world class and being the best player are different subjects.

You can edit your posts you know, then you dont have to do three different posts

I'm saying that if you're not in the first team for your country, you can't really be considered world class.

It's a bit like not making the first team at club level and saying your one of the best players at the club.

I don't even know which player was been discussed

I don't honestly see how you can put an arguement together to say that a player who isn't in his national sides first team can be considered world class.

 

[bloodline76]

I'm saying that if you're not in the first team for your country, you can't really be considered world class.

It's a bit like not making the first team at club level and saying your one of the best players at the club.

I don't even know which player was been discussed

I don't honestly see how you can put an arguement together to say that a player who isn't in his national sides first team can be considered world class.

I will try and put it simply for you.

Say the world class players are considered to be the top 5% in the world. I think that would be a fair judge of ability dont you think?

Now this cant simply be broken down into areas of who is in the national side as each nation has a different level of ability to the next. So if you are judging the players by their individual ability then nation first teams dont come into the equation because some nations are going to have more than 11 players in that top 5%.

So even if you are just a player that is only sometimes played in the starting 11 then you could still be considered world class.

Its all down to personal opinion anyway if you are judging a player by if he starts in the first 11 or not as its down to the manager and tactics.

I think that is a fair explaination of how you can be a world class player without being in the starting 11 of your national team

 

[Tummy]

Arsenal fan?

I think the best players in the world get in to the starting team of their country.

I think that of all the players who are considered the first choice by their country there are a handful who are world class.

You can't be world class and not playing regular for your country.

Fabby is a wonderful footballer, but he's still very young.

I don't see how you can come up with an arguement for a player to be world class when that player (doesn't matter who he is, or who he plays for) isn't in his national side.

World Class players will get in to the first team of their country, if they really are that good then they will be first choice, you don't get second choice world class players, they are few and far between at international level.

 

[Shamikebab]

This argument is RIDICULOUS


There is no strict definition of world class:

Not all players starting at national level are world class

Not all players not starting at national level aren't world class.

 

[bloodline76]

Arsenal fan?

I think the best players in the world get in to the starting team of their country.

I think that of all the players who are considered the first choice by their country there are a handful who are world class.

You can't be world class and not playing regular for your country.

Fabby is a wonderful footballer, but he's still very young.

I don't see how you can come up with an arguement for a player to be world class when that player (doesn't matter who he is, or who he plays for) isn't in his national side.

World Class players will get in to the first team of their country, if they really are that good then they will be first choice, you don't get second choice world class players, they are few and far between at international level.

Im not talking about a particular player, i used fabregas and Ramsey as an example of one person being in a first team and the other not, yet for their club the other player is picked ahead of them.

Im talking about world class players. Obviously you arent going to listen to reason. I have explained to you yet you are still too arrogant to take on board my point despite it being logical.

You arent even proving my point wrong you are just saying im wrong and you are right.

This argument is RIDICULOUS


There is no strict definition of world class:

Not all players starting at national level are world class

Not all players not starting at national level aren't world class.

Exactly my point. You dont have to be in the first 11 of your national team to be considered world class.

Majority decision wins

 

[Tummy]

Oh and Ramsey plays in the starting 11 for his national team so by that erm...logic then Ramsey is better than fabregas

Fabregas wouldnt even get into the Wales team as their starting 11 are all world class and he isnt. I wonder why Wenger hasnt seen this yet and keeps starting fab?

Just because you're an International player doesn't make you on the same level as all other International players.

Fabregas is a better player then Ramsey.

I've not said at any point that been at International makes you equal to other Internationals.

I'm saying that the best players in the world, yes those world class players will be playing for their country. That doesn't mean that all International players are world class.

So you've got all the International players together, and then of those International players some are better then others, see?

Then of those better players some are really special players, a bit like Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta...

 

[bloodline76]

Just because you're an International player doesn't make you on the same level as all other International players.

Fabregas is a better player then Ramsey.

I've not said at any point that been at International makes you equal to other Internationals.

I'm saying that the best players in the world, yes those world class players will be playing for their country. That doesn't mean that all International players are world class.

So you've got all the International players together, and then of those International players some are better then others, see?

Then of those better players some are really special players, a bit like Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta...

But you dont see that you cant get to the point that x players are world class by picking just from the international players that play in the first 11 of their national team.

Because world class would not mean the best 11 in the world. It would mean say the top 100 players in the world. And in that top 100 you would have some players that arent in the starting line ups for their national team if you judged them by ability as individuals.

If the decussion was "Who are the best 11 in the world" then yes your point would be slightly more valid but if you were going to do that you would then have to have the national side picked by a panel of people rather than one person. Because one manager might pick one player and another manager might have a difference of opinion and pick someone else. So you would be limiting the top 11 to those that a particular manager prefered.

So you have to judge the player on an individual basis and not from the national team so a player not in the starting lineup could still be classed as world class.

So basically you are saying that you dont actually have an opinion on who are world class players as you have to reply on the opinion of the national managers to make up your mind for you. Know I understand where you are coming from

 

[Tummy]

Which world class players don't get in to their national team?

The best players from each country play for their country, then of all those players some are better then others.

Then of those better players, some are a bit special.

World Class means a handful of players that are better then everyone else in that postition, the word is thrown about far too much.