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What do gamers actually think about Ray-Tracing?

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I do think the experience is all relative. At the moment, I'm mostly gaming on the PS5 - and I don't have a 120hz TV. I'm totally ok with playing at 60fps though I'm not playing first person shooters. It's all typical open world or sports games.

If I was to sit down and play a bit of CS2, which I haven't in months, then I'd just have to go for the higher frames.

Even though I'm so, so, so rubbish compared to what I used to be :D
That laptop gaming, I was happy if I got 60 actually. :D Not all games have DLSS, laptop has 3k screen and so playing in 1080p was not a fun experience with bad bilinear upscaling, so it went down to tweaking other settings, then praying I don't run out of vRAM etc. :p Some games had drops to 30s FPS now and then, but (as said earlier) I got used to this. Then going back to 120+ (usually 167 as that's my monitor's limit with in-driver v-sync enforced) was quite a bit of a soap-opera shock, as mentioned. :)
 
Caporegime
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People are forgetting that the the RTX cards utilise Ray Reconstruction and ReSTIR GI. These not only improve performance but also the visuals. None of the other vendor cards can do this so this is likely why only RTX is listed here in this context.




Keep in mind this only applies to RT, not PT, with PT you introduce noticeable input latency for the mouse camera movement. This is also exhibited in Unreal engine 5.4 (both Hellblade 2 and Still Wakes the Deep) whereby using DLDSR for 4K or higher (5160x2160) results in noticeable mouse camera latency, even with Reflex on, even with DLSS Performance. All due to the baseline pre-FG framerate being below 60fps but typically under 70fps. The baseline fps must be above this in order to not have a distracting level of mouse camera input latency, even with Reflex on. And that's on a 4090, so lower RTX cards have no hope. If you have a 1000Hz polling rate mouse or higher then the issue is immediately noticeable.

With just RT though and not PT included and non UE5.4 engined games, DLDSR+DLSS Perf is great for performance.

I'll need to test again as can't say I noticed, I have a logitech pro x superlight 2 mouse and as you know game at 175hz but maybe for such games, I am using a controller.
 
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People are forgetting that the the RTX cards utilise Ray Reconstruction and ReSTIR GI. These not only improve performance but also the visuals. None of the other vendor cards can do this so this is likely why only RTX is listed here in this context.
Barely any games use these tech, yet - especially second one (CP2077 and... any other actually?). RR is in its core just a simple AI algo, which will be duplicated by competition - there's nothing really special or secret about it, even though results are much better than standard denoising algos. NVIDIA had a good idea but just like FG, it won't stay NVIDIA exclusive for much longer. Lumen doesn't use ReSTIR GI, they have their own solution. Both of these have limitations though. Checking various UE forums where game devs talk to NVIDIA and UE devs, I found that Lumen is more noisy in reflections but produces accurate ones and they're improving it with much better denoising (similar to RR) already. In newest builds of UE5 it's already very apparent how much reflections improved comparing to older UE5 versions. NVIDIA's tech speeds up PT rendering but produces inaccurate reflections, missing light diffusion and few other bits, as it's limited to just 1 bounce with reflections. Reality of products is never as good as advertised, after all.

I'll leave here one of the NVIDIA employee's quote from their forums, as a response to dev trying to make it work in UE, where Lumen was generating proper results and Restir GI was generating huge issues with camera movement, bad reflections etc:
"So basically, low res Restir GI + RT AO is the current solution, enlarge RTAO radius may help. As I mentioned in readme doc, Restir GI is much harder for artist to tweak properly compared to Lumen, so I still put HW Lumen as primary GI solution."

That said, both companies are constantly improving their respective technologies of course, but devs of both also admit neither will ever be as accurate as true Path Tracing (which, in itself, is also a simplification of reality, with loads of shortcuts in it already) - it's physically impossible, as current hardware is way too slow to accurately calculate all light in live scenes (as in, in games). Which is what I said earlier as well. :) In the end, what we see today in games is not true PT - number of light rays calculated is miniscule, heavy denoising, details missing, loads of inaccuracies. All the crutch tech is not much different from what GPU rasterization was comparing to CPU calculating whole scene back in the days, with loads of simplifications accelerated by hardware and building on top of it (introduction of pixel and vertex shaders etc.). It still allowed very fancy graphics in games and yes, it will be phased out by new simplified methods based on RT/PT - yet still not really being true PT. It's an evolution, not revolution, I dare to say. And it will take a long time to actually replace rasterization in games and become mainstream - as even with all the crutches and shortcuts it's still not fast enough for cheap GPUs and raster still has its place.
 
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mrk

mrk

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I'll believe it when I see it when other vendors have similar tech to Ray Reconstruction, If AMD were going to do it we'd have seen hints of it by now but AMD have basically given up on high end gaming so the thought of it appearing on anything else is to be taken with a pinch of salt. Intel have only just announced their new RT cored iGP with no strict detail on dGP lineup but it's expected that RT perf is aligned around a 4070 Ti range I guess? That's still just RT not PT, and still no roadmap for anything RR related. For ref RR works on normal RT as well as PT, and even RTX 20 series can use RR, but DLSS needs to be enabled for RR to work as it uses that pipeline.

Personally I don't think we will see anything from AMD like these technologies given how lacking AMD have been and the fact that they are still 2 generations outdated with whatever they have in terms of RT performance.

Raster is already on the way to being replaced, raster cannot (out of the box) do accurate reflections, it cannot do accurate shadows, it cannot do accurate GI, everything like that has to be accurately done by hand which requires time, which costs money, which is something even the biggest dev execs umm and ahh at the thought of. Plus more and more games are coming out now with reflections on the ground and water bodies. Raster just looks absolutely terrible when the camera moves around the, or your character obscures some of those reflection areas. This is more apparent today with massive monitors that people are using and in the age of 4K gameplay footage to show that off on etc. All of the flaws in raster are just more apparent today than they used to be.

Still Wakes the Deep is currently the only game I have played where shadows are genuinely done amazingly, regardless of how close or far you are, the softness and hardness changes in real-time based on your distance to the light source, and there are zero sign of any jaggedness/aliasing on the shadow outlines either, it is as far as I can see, perfect shadows. There is RT noise in the occluded areas where light hits of course but that's what we currently have in UE anyway, and this game uses UE 5.3 from what I have seen so far not 5.4. Not even Hellblade 2 got shadows this perfect, and that's UE5.4. So whatever RT tech for shadows SWtD is using is working wonders with an increment version down from UE5.4, all this from a small indie dev... Something no AAA dev has yet to get just right.
 
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Associate
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I'll believe it when I see it when other vendors have similar tech to Ray Reconstruction, If AMD were going to do it we'd have seen hints of it by now but AMD have basically given up on high end gaming so the thought of it appearing on anything else is to be taken with a pinch of salt. (...)

RR is hardly a high-end gaming thing though - the goal is to speed things up even more and bring down to mid-range and lower over time, after all. Only then RT in games could become mainstream. Something akin to RR will be very helpful here. Though, as said, Lumen seem to have already similar tech included, just they don't advertise it like NVIDIA, as it's just one small cog in the whole Lumen engine.

Personally I don't think we will see anything from AMD like these technologies given how lacking AMD have been and the fact that they are still 2 generations outdated with whatever they have in terms of RT performance .

You focus too much on AMD here, I believe. Competition includes not just AMD and Intel (currently Intel has 0% market share with AIBs apparently, by the way - as in, they're gone and forgotten with current gen) but also Qualcomm with their ARM based SOCs (both for mobile and coming soon Windows machines), plus Apple (it's not a Windows PC tech but still interesting to see what they come up with).

Raster is already on the way to being replaced, raster cannot (out of the box) do accurate reflections, it cannot do accurate shadows, it cannot do accurate GI, everything like that has to be accurately done by hand which requires time, which costs money, which is something even the biggest dev execs umm and ahh at the thought of.

Apparently NVIDIA tech can't do accurate reflections either, as I mentioned - it's too simplified for the sake of speed, comparing to true PT. Lumen has its own limitations too. None of these are actual PT, so none of them will be actually accurate. Either you get proper performance sacrificing quality and accuracy, or you wait seconds per frame instead of FPS, with proper PT. This is a case of "it's good enough for most", but that applies to raster as well, for many people. In reality, it's not about image quality or realism for gamers with RT - as much as we like to think it is. Instead, as you mentioned yourself, it is about cost cutting for publishers when developing games - RT is just cheaper and easier to do, for them. The only thing really stopping them going fully into that is lack of performance on the side of majority of consumers GPUs - games like that just don't sell as well as publishers desire, yet, as most people can't run RT (without even mentioning PT) with sensible FPS, yet. Software Lumen actually helps here (but still requires fast enough hardware), then hardware Lumen. Proper PT is not really on the table, for many years to come.

Still Wakes the Deep is currently the only game I have played where shadows are genuinely done amazingly, regardless of how close or far you are, the softness and hardness changes in real-time based on your distance to the light source, and there are zero sign of any jaggedness/aliasing on the shadow outlines either, it is as far as I can see, perfect shadows. There is RT noise in the occluded areas where light hits of course but that's what we currently have in UE anyway, and this game uses UE 5.3 from what I have seen so far not 5.4. Not even Hellblade 2 got shadows this perfect, and that's UE5.4. So whatever RT tech for shadows SWtD is using is working wonders with an increment version down from UE5.4.
I have not heard about that game before in any meaningful way. Also, on Steam at least it's not even been released yet (18th of Jun it shows). I'll keep an eye on it, even if just to benchmark how RT is evolving! :) As even though I might sound now and then like RT-denier or so, I am actually an enthusiast of visual tech progress (not just in games). Though, I feel there's just too much hurrah-optimism about NVIDIA stuff out there instead of cold look at reality of where we really are and what's coming in near future in that regard.
 
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Soldato
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Apart from the correct whataboutism reference above, when we slur into AMD and Intel you have to remember these are primarily CPU companies that have a smaller division focusing on dGPU's. Nvidia is the opposite where they dabble into the CPU's for select cases but their primary specialism has always been in GPU. Think about the budget, scale and interests I don't know why you would expect other competitors to be toe-to-toe with them in some of these fields?
 

mrk

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Well the reality is that we currently have very good performance through the use of Nvidia tech, as mentioned above, all down to the sheer budget and focus one vendor can put on said tech for dGPUs whereas none of the others can, or don't want to. AMD probably could, but their new fad just like Nvidia is Generative AI, and because AMD never really got a grasp of AI upscaling and game rendering tech early on, they've just jumped right into that instead leaving rendering tech behind. I still maintain we will not see AMD release anything aligned with RR/ReSTIR GI or SER for that matter because AMD don't have the focus or the resource to do that because they can't unless the take resources out of Generative AI which loses them countless millions/billions. They couldn't even provide Sony with the hardware needed to get meaningful performance gains for PS5 pro which is why Sony went ahead and bolstered the tech themselves (PSSR etc).

Still Wakes the Deep is out on the 18th, I've had review code for a while now so have had enough time to dig into its UE5 workings.
 
Caporegime
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Well the reality is that we currently have very good performance through the use of Nvidia tech, as mentioned above, all down to the sheer budget and focus one vendor can put on said tech for dGPUs whereas none of the others can, or don't want to. AMD probably could, but their new fad just like Nvidia is Generative AI, and because AMD never really got a grasp of AI upscaling and game rendering tech early on, they've just jumped right into that instead leaving rendering tech behind. I still maintain we will not see AMD release anything aligned with RR/ReSTIR GI or SER for that matter because AMD don't have the focus or the resource to do that because they can't unless the take resources out of Generative AI which loses them countless millions/billions. They couldn't even provide Sony with the hardware needed to get meaningful performance gains for PS5 pro which is why Sony went ahead and bolstered the tech themselves (PSSR etc).

Still Wakes the Deep is out on the 18th, I've had review code for a while now so have had enough time to dig into its UE5 workings.

Yup like I said in another thread, nvidias focus and spotlight may be all ai stuff but so is intel and amd, however, difference is in the background, nvidia are still steaming ahead in the gaming partnerships and developments:


BTw, star wars outlaws will be using ray reconstruction and it has also been built into remix now too, like dlss, fg, rt, new tech is slow to get into games but after a while, it becomes quite common then.
 
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Well the reality is that we currently have very good performance through the use of Nvidia tech, as mentioned above,

That's true only on the current high end hardware, which is not what most gamers use (just look at Steam's hardware stats). Games won't be at large limited to top end hardware - they've tried that for a while, it doesn't sell as well as desired by publishers and is just too expensive (and too risky) to produce - as mentioned earlier. We are years away before that trickles down to mainstream.

AMD probably could, but(...)

But did they steal your firstborn or so, forcing you to bring them up all the time, even if it's not relevant? :)

I still maintain we will not see AMD release anything aligned with RR/ReSTIR GI or SER

And they really don't have to, because UE5 with Lumen takes cared if it all (again "good enough"), irrelevant of GPU vendor. And as per quote earlier, even Nvidia devs seem to tell game devs to just use Lumen instead of trying to make their own tech work, as Lumen is easier to work with etc. And, again, Lumen is relatively hardware agnostic.
 

mrk

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We'll just have to wait and see. We've not seen anything meaningful in all these years from Intel or AMD. INtel are trying and are making strides with their own struggles, but I fear it will be too little too late, and now Battlemage is not until 2025 either which means nearly a whole year they could have captured the market with some decent dGPUs whilst NV and AMD both show little care for the mid to lower end priced segment.

Plus all of the modern engine tech is aimed at the high end market anyway, there's no way a mid range card from any vendor is getting responsive and clean performance without some form of compromise in the form of input latency, visual fidelity or other stuff. Not in the price range we would prefer to call midrange anyway.

Never heard of it before, but just watched the trailers and it looks superb, and scary, very scary.
Any idea of game lengh?
Similar to Hellblade 2, 7-8 hours of gameplay if you do some exploring and die a bit too instead of rushing through. It's paced well enough to not be a drag and not too short to feel cheated out of £26 or whatever the price is currently!

The review embargo lifts on the 17th hence why outlets haven't covered much about it yet other than the info that's already out there.
 
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That thread (it's subject) isn't really correct, though - as per latest stats about deliveries to AIBs, Intel is 0% currently (wiped out of dGPU space), AMD is on their normal level of 12% (they've been bit higher but that was anomaly and not their typical market share) and not dropping currently. Nvidia just took Intel's market share, as both them and AMD had a growth, just bigger on Nvidia's side, for obvious reasons. AMD for a very long time now had about 12% and still does. Steam statistics also show their market share is pretty static and not dropping, over long periods (years now).

BTw, star wars outlaws will be using ray reconstruction and it has also been built into remix now too, like dlss, fg, rt, new tech is slow to get into games but after a while, it becomes quite common then.
That game already looks like a horrible flop before it even got released - not because of graphics but the whole idea, writing, pushing divisive political views inside, etc. That is really not what SW fans wanted to see and play. Which will make it very much irrelevant in the market. As I said in the past, graphics do not make games good and sadly bad games do not help improving the market at all.
 
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We'll just have to wait and see. We've not seen anything meaningful in all these years from Intel or AMD. INtel are trying and are making strides with their own struggles, but I fear it will be too little too late, and now Battlemage is not until 2025 either which means nearly a whole year they could have captured the market with some decent dGPUs whilst NV and AMD both show little care for the mid to lower end priced segment.

Intel sadly overslept both CPU and GPU market evolution and they are playing catch-up up game for a while now. In CPUs compensating with ridiculous power consumption, which might spill over to their GPU approach. They still hold a large chunk of CPU market but they are bleeding monies rapidly.

Plus all of the modern engine tech is aimed at the high end market anyway, there's no way a mid range card from any vendor is getting responsive and clean performance without some form of compromise in the form of input latency, visual fidelity or other stuff. Not in the price range we would prefer to call midrange anyway.

UE5 is also aimed at film making market and not just gaming. But game engines do not create games, publishers fund that mostly and - again - quite a few already said they don't want to risk creating fancy looking, big single player games anymore. It will be much cheaper multiplayer titles as their focus, with live services and all kinds of money sucking mechanisms bolted on. Much lower budgets, much lower risk. And by that definitely not aimed at high end, as that's not where money is.

For us, soon enough indie might be the only good way to go - they won't aim at high end either though (too risky), but hopefully they will implement a wide range of options for all kinds of hardware, including high end.
 
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Associate
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But did they steal your firstborn or so, forcing you to bring them up all the time, even if it's not relevant? :)
It's absolutely relevant. Competition is good and they aren't providing enough of that.

Not all of us are brain dead fanboys of one side or the other, some of us want competing companies so that we have more choice.
 

mrk

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I just played the third and final episode of Alan Wake 2's expansion and have to say very impressive. Here's what I posted on [H] and in terms of ray tracing/path tracing quality, I think it is relevant in this thread as a viewpoint:

The other 2 episodes are much better for the visuals, better than the base game in ways too. I notice the shadows are higher fidelity now, not sure if that has something to do with the updated DLSS files for RR/SR and FG (I manually updated to 3.7 and 3.7.1 and am using Preset E for everything). They are essentially perfect shadow rendering and soften or harden depending on how close you move to or from a light source. There is only one other game I have seen where shadows are this precise and that's Still Wakes the Deep which is UE5.3.

Hopefully other devs take note as this is how lighting and shadow is done, the fact that we now see it done this well in both a UE5 and a bespoke engine AAA title means nobody else has any excuse, and one of those devs is a small indie too.
 
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More metro, this time outside, 120Hz In App AV1 encode, because apparently NOW the internet thinks that is the new thing to be excited about, welcome to the party.... i guess, 70 Mb/s, it can do up to 100 but i wanted to keep a reasonable file size.

PS: 120 Hz recording is nice and all but Youtube, bless them, don't actually support it.

 
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mrk

mrk

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Is that using Radeon recording? When you record at 120fps mode does the game drop to 120fps too if it normally is above that, or say 60fps recording mode does the game drop to 60? On Nvidia it doesn't matter what you set the recording framerate to, if your game was running at 300fps then it will still run at 300fps whilst you record, the video will be captured at 60 or 120fps and you'd never know the video was being recorded at a lower framerate otherwise because everything is in sync during playback. The refresh rate remains 175Hz or 144Hz of course during recording.

I've sacked off 120fps recording, all it does is double the filesize, also gone back to H264/HEVC (for HDR) mode as native AV1 recording via the NV App beta via the currently stops youtube from processing it so I have to then re-encode it to AV1 using Handbrake which the works in youtube, so better off just sticking to H264. I record at 150Mbps though so there is no quality loss at least on my end of the chain, youtube compression then does whatever it wants on the streaming side of things but at least my source video is the best quality it can be, everything after that is on Google to sort lol.

I realised there's no point recording at 120fps because of the fact that youtube just won't play it beyond 60fps anyway and nobody has any idea when it will actually support 120fps playback.
 
Caporegime
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Is that using Radeon recording? When you record at 120fps mode does the game drop to 120fps too if it normally is above that, or say 60fps recording mode does the game drop to 60? On Nvidia it doesn't matter what you set the recording framerate to, if your game was running at 300fps then it will still run at 300fps whilst you record, the video will be captured at 60 or 120fps and you'd never know the video was being recorded at a lower framerate otherwise because everything is in sync during playback. The refresh rate remains 175Hz or 144Hz of course during recording.

I've sacked off 120fps recording, all it does is double the filesize, also gone back to H264/HEVC (for HDR) mode as native AV1 recording via the NV App beta via the currently stops youtube from processing it so I have to then re-encode it to AV1 using Handbrake which the works in youtube, so better off just sticking to H264. I record at 150Mbps though so there is no quality loss at least on my end of the chain, youtube compression then does whatever it wants on the streaming side of things but at least my source video is the best quality it can be, everything after that is on Google to sort lol.

I realised there's no point recording at 120fps because of the fact that youtube just won't play it beyond 60fps anyway and nobody has any idea when it will actually support 120fps playback.

It is and i don't know, normally i record at 60, because why 120 when Youtube doesn't support it? Star Citizen quite often falls below 60 FPS, because Star Citizen, but the recording is always a constant 60, but it can also go above 100, the game will run at over 100 while recording, it makes no difference to the game or the recording.

I don't use ACV or HEVC, because frankly the image quality is not up to scratch, people have said AMD's HEVC recording quality has improved, maybe it has but having come from a 2070S to the RX 7800 XT i can tell you categorically Nvidia's NVEC encoder is visibly better.

AV1 tho is great, better than Nvidia's HEVC, its impressively good and reviewers who have subjectively tested it say AMD's AV1 is just as good as Nvidia's, and i presume Intel is too.

The problem that i have with AV1 recording is it will record the HDR encoded image when i use Windows Auto HDR, so it looks weird, i have turned it off for these recordings, i don't know what to do about it and i don't know if its a problem with AMD's recording app, IE its something they can fix, when they get around to it, or if this is just normal?
 
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Caporegime
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Actually if you watch the first Metro video i posted right from the beginning the frame rates go up to 90 something, they are also quite often above 60, that was recorded at 60 Hz.

Edit: i have a 165 Hz screen.
 
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Caporegime
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This was recorded AV1 with Windows Auto HDR on, if you don't know the game you might not see what's wrong with it, but trust me the colour is way off and its dulled, its HDR encoded but not displayed in HDR, maybe that's Youtube thing? its supposed to convert it? the original video looks like this too.

How do i fix this...

 
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