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What do you think of the 4070Ti?

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Chud_Jenny said:
Remember the 3090ti launched with no MSRP and buyers have been burned very badly. The 4070Ti MSRP is fake too. (The FE will be $799 as NV are controlling there own costs) The AMD MBA 7900XTX has gone up in price too now no one wants them!
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Theres no fe for 4070 ti. The msrps are fake. I am more interested in the likely impact this chip could have in the laptop market
 
Why has everyone started comparing differently? I notice that now the 4070ti is being compared to a 3090ti. Previously people would compare the latest with the previous generation of the same class, so we would be talking how much faster the 4070ti is than the 3070ti ... and we could directly compare performance increase with price increase. By shifting the comparison we are now comparing the new generation to what was a proportionately more expensive card. Seems to me this is con number one that NVIDIA seems to be getting away with. But then I really do live in despair becuase NVIDIA's evil plans seem to work. Despite words the NVIDIA fan-club will be off out to spend their money tomorrow.
 
This is such a strange picture for many reasons.

I can understand 4090 pricing. That is a HUGE die, a lot of fast memory, a lot of power, a lot of cooling. Fine.
4070ti (and 4080) pricing is objectively high. 7900XT is inefficient in using the resources it has.

Lets just do some simple comparisons between the 4070ti and 7900XT in terms of actual BoM costs:
  • 296mm^2 die vs. 300mm^2 GCD, silicon interposer, 5xMCDs
  • 12GB GDDR6X 196-bit bus vs. 20GB 320-bit bus
  • $799 vs. $899
Ignoring performance, the 4070ti must cost 20-30% less than the 7900XT to manufacture, purely based on the silicon interposer and MCDs, extra manufacturing costs, etc.
What is baffling is that despite vastly more transistors, silicon and memory the 7900XT is rumoured to barely outperform the 4070ti.

If you translate gen to gen, this card would sit somewhere between the 3060ti and the 3070, with the following comparisons (4070ti vs 3070 vs 3060ti):
  • 296mm^2 TSMC 5nm vs. 392mm^2 Samsung 8nm vs. 392mm^2 Samsung 8nm
  • 12GB GDDR6X 196-bit bus vs. 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus vs. 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus
  • $799 vs. $499 vs. $399
If you account for more costly TSMC 5nm wafers and lower yields for larger does on the 30 series, the dies for the 4070ti would cost in the same ballpark as the 3070/3060ti. Memory prices have fallen nicely in the last year due to demand falling rapidly. The PCB cost for the 4070ti will be similar.
Costs of a bunch of things have gone up, but this really looks about 30% over priced. IMO, we should be seeing 4070tis for about $599 to $649 to account for inflation, etc.

TL;DR: The 4070ti is objectively expensive based on BoM cost vs. the 7900XT, 3060ti and 3070. The 7900XT is poor at using the resources it has and FEELS like it should perform way better - pray to the driver gods? The value sentiment of both AMD and NV GPUs is poor (but not completely woeful) from a performance perspective.
 
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Was all for this card and wish I still had my initial ignorance so I could be happier hahaha.

Back round the GPU upgrade decision I go...
 
Posted this in the 4000 series thread but $799 (overpriced as it is) MSRP for the 4070ti will be an absolute unicorn.

Don't forget that nVidia probably really annoyed AIB's by making the u-turn decision on repositioning the 4080 12GB as a 4070ti. Those AIB's probably had PCB, cooler's, boxes and marketing all either designed or well into the development stages.

Nvidia probably agreed not to make and sell a FE 4070ti so AIB could gouge away to their hearts content to smooth things over.
 
0h_no_not_again said:
This is such a strange picture for many reasons.

I can understand 4090 pricing. That is a HUGE die, a lot of fast memory, a lot of power, a lot of cooling. Fine.
4070ti (and 4080) pricing is objectively high. 7900XT is inefficient in using the resources it has.

Lets just do some simple comparisons between the 4070ti and 7900XT in terms of actual BoM costs:
  • 296mm^2 die vs. 300mm^2 GCD, silicon interposer, 5xMCDs
  • 12GB GDDR6X 196-bit bus vs. 20GB 320-bit bus
  • $799 vs. $899
Ignoring performance, the 4070ti must cost 20-30% less than the 7900XT to manufacture, purely based on the silicon interposer and MCDs, extra manufacturing costs, etc.
What is baffling is that despite vastly more transistors, silicon and memory the 7900XT is rumoured to barely outperform the 4070ti.

If you translate gen to gen, this card would sit somewhere between the 3060ti and the 3070, with the following comparisons (4070ti vs 3070 vs 3060ti):
  • 296mm^2 TSMC 5nm vs. 392mm^2 Samsung 8nm vs. 392mm^2 Samsung 8nm
  • 12GB GDDR6X 196-bit bus vs. 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus vs. 8GB GDDR6 256-bit bus
  • $799 vs. $499 vs. $399
If you account for more costly TSMC 5nm wafers and lower yields for larger does on the 30 series, the dies for the 4070ti would cost in the same ballpark as the 3070/3060ti. Memory prices have fallen nicely in the last year due to demand falling rapidly. The PCB cost for the 4070ti will be similar.
Costs of a bunch of things have gone up, but this really looks about 30% over priced. IMO, we should be seeing 4070tis for about $599 to $649 to account for inflation, etc.

TL;DR: The 4070ti is objectively expensive based on BoM cost vs. the 7900XT, 3060ti and 3070. The 7900XT is poor at using the resources it has and FEELS like it should perform way better - pray to the driver gods? The value sentiment of both AMD and NV GPUs is poor (but not completely woeful) from a performance perspective.
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Very nice comparison. Thank you for looking up all the die sizes.

I totally agree that this gen are wildly overpriced in the midrange, the top tier halo products are always stupidely expensive and tbf the 4090 does deliver superb performance. What we are not seeing with this current gen is exponential pricing compared to performance and they are trying to instal a linear price to performance product stack. You want half the performance of a 4090 then you pay half the price for a 4070ti, this has just not been the case for the past few generations and if you went for a lower tier products you got better value and that does not seem to be the case anymore.
 
I think any card they don't release a founders edition/reference model for is a warning sign to customers that selling this card to customers at a reasonable price is not a focus.

It seems likely that the only reference models will be the RTX 4080 and above.
 
g67575 said:
I think any card they don't release a founders edition/reference model for is a warning sign to customers that selling this card to customers at a reasonable price is not a focus.

It seems likely that the only reference models will be the RTX 4080 and above.
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I think they'll do a 4070 FE but apparently that's only going to use a 106 die so will probably struggle to match a 3080 for a similar price.
 
Haz123 said:
Very nice comparison. Thank you for looking up all the die sizes.

I totally agree that this gen are wildly overpriced in the midrange, the top tier halo products are always stupidely expensive and tbf the 4090 does deliver superb performance. What we are not seeing with this current gen is exponential pricing compared to performance and they are trying to instal a linear price to performance product stack. You want half the performance of a 4090 then you pay half the price for a 4070ti, this has just not been the case for the past few generations and if you went for a lower tier products you got better value and that does not seem to be the case anymore.
Click to expand...
I probably should have looked up performance numbers, but I was being lazy... Hardware Unboxed or Gamers Nexus will do that way better than me. Realistically, my whole garbled dit is kind of useless to the consumer, where we should be interested in price vs. performance.

I completely agree with your pricing sentiment. The cost of the 4090 die (608mm^2) will be far far higher 4080 die (379mm^2). I haven't done the maths, but I'd estimate the 4090 die costs ~3x more. There is obviously NRE to factor, but for a mid-range & higher volume product, these should be lower.

It is a really hard sell that these are good value.
 
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