When are you going fully electric?

[bigmike20vt]

... anyone ?approaching 200wh/mile yet

I have never had one myself but I think the original ionic , Corsa, Megane, and Kia soul can all get 5miles per kWh on the right journey.

the model 3 iirc is not quite as good but you did say *approaching*. in which case cars like the ID3 may also be in with a shout

 

[b0rn2sk8]

If you stick to 60, the Model 3 RWD will do it 8 months of the year the same as those other cars.

But then who spends £40k on a car with 300 hp to drive at 60…

 

[bigmike20vt]

If you stick to 60, the Model 3 RWD will do it 8 months of the year the same as those other cars.

But then who spends £40k on a car with 300 hp to drive at 60…

needs must. I always put my car in eco and drive like a saint when am on a trip where I am pushing the range a bit.
the rest of the time I don't need to worry.

today I even put mine in dynamic (aka performance mode). I don't normally bother to be honest but I screwed up my charging last night and accidentally charged a load on solar this morning leaving me at over 90% despite not using the car till Wednesday.

so went for a bit of a joy ride to get a few KWH out of the battery. I think the car scored my driving style at 43%

 

[Penfold101]

If you stick to 60, the Model 3 RWD will do it 8 months of the year the same as those other cars.

But then who spends £40k on a car with 300 hp to drive at 60…

Bhp doesn’t change the top speed or the speed limit, just gets you there a fraction quicker…

 

[sandys]

The bold assumption is that PHEV owners actually charge them. A lot of the company car brigade don’t because their employers don’t reimburse them for the energy so why would they bother.

They should really mandate that companies providing EV/PHEV as company cars have to install chargers, once there is more destination charging these things become even more practical.

Anyway isn't the trick with PHEVs to charge at home but claim petrol mileage?

But then who spends £40k on a car with 300 hp to drive at 60…

Ummm .... 60s a bit fast, 30 ok

 

[ICDP]

So what you're saying is that a card maker would look at that data and establish that there's a huge market for "happy 35th birthday!" cards. Then end up selling none of them and going out of business?

You say I don't understand averages, but then quite literally point out in your post that basing a product on the "average" has a not-insignficant risk of meeting nobody's needs

My average journey is probably around 5-10 miles with 2 people in the car. That doesn't change the fact that I also need to frequently do 100+ mile trips to isolated locations with no chargers, or to carry more than 1 passenger, or to fill the car with stuff.

A car that meets my "average" needs doesn't actually meets my needs at all, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Don't get me wrong, there's certainly a place for cheap short range EVs as a second car, but £30k isn't exactly cheap (especially when you consider you can get something like an MG4 with double that for the same price)

You keep missing the entire point of averages. Ironically I used the average age analogy to show why averages don’t work for specific individual needs. I was attempting to show you that you are using averages wrong, and the fact you missed the point entirely has proved you really don’t understand what averages are used for.

Once again, averages are more of a broad approximation purely for statistical analysis purposes. That does not make the average irrelevant, it just means it’s not a useful metric to determine individual requirements.

So you or anyone else using your specific needs to prove the average is “wrong”, is just demonstrating you haven’t a clue what average means. Or more to the point, why they aren’t irrelevant and explain why short range EVs are a thing.

 

[chanjy]

needs must. I always put my car in eco and drive like a saint when am on a trip where I am pushing the range a bit.
the rest of the time I don't need to worry.

today I even put mine in dynamic (aka performance mode). I don't normally bother to be honest but I screwed up my charging last night and accidentally charged a load on solar this morning leaving me at over 90% despite not using the car till Wednesday.

so went for a bit of a joy ride to get a few KWH out of the battery. I think the car scored my driving style at 43%

Don’t think you’ll be killing the battery leaving it at 90% for a few days mate

Always nice to go for a drive if you have time though lol

 

[Haggisman]

You keep missing the entire point of averages. Ironically I used the average age analogy to show why averages don’t work for specific individual needs. I was attempting to show you that you are using averages wrong, and the fact you missed the point entirely has proved you really don’t understand what averages are used for.

Once again, averages are more of a broad approximation purely for statistical analysis purposes. That does not make the average irrelevant, it just means it’s not a useful metric to determine individual requirements.

So you or anyone else using your specific needs to prove the average is “wrong”, is just demonstrating you haven’t a clue what average means. Or more to the point, why they aren’t irrelevant and explain why short range EVs are a thing.

So let's assume you're right, and I'm using averages wrong, instead of telling me (and everyone else they are wrong), explain how they are useful in this context, if a £30k 100 mile range car meets barely anyone's needs.

Bear in mind that most people aren't going to buy a car that meets their average needs, they're going to buy one which meets 90%+ of their needs, because even if they only need to do a 200 mile trip once a month, having to hire a car for that is going to be both inconvenient and expensive.

Edit: actually, I've just realised who these cars are designed for; they're absolutely perfect for the anti-EV press - the headlines almost write themselves - "EVs not suitable for average driver". "The average UK driver spends £30k on a car, so we took one for a test drive, and it barely does 100 miles, while statistics show that this is more than enough for most people's average journey, it doesn't take into account longer trips, and those are out of the question with an EV"

It's genius, they don't even have to lie or pretend they're bumbling idiots who can't work out how to use a public charger!

 

[delta0]

Most car trips are less than 5 miles and 99% are less than 100 miles. I find it beyond hard to believe that there is anywhere remote where charging is not possible in the UK. I drive 1000 miles or more in Europe in an EV without any issues. I would run out of land in the UK with those kinds of distances.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Most car trips are less than 5 miles

There must be a lot of people doing only 2000 miles a year or making many short trips all day long then. I'd be really surprised if this is the case - where are the majority of people going if most trips are under 5 miles?

If this really is true then the answer is probably something other than a £40,000 electric car.

 

[delta0]

There must be a lot of people doing only 2000 miles a year or making many short trips all day long then. I'd be really surprised if this is the case - where are the majority of people going if most trips are under 5 miles?

If this really is true then the answer is probably something other than a £40,000 electric car.

A quick google suggests we are down to 6,800 miles per year average now. 5 miles could be each way. The vast majority of journeys are well within the range of an EV on home charging only. I only use chargers on route on the really long journeys and it’s easy, the car just plans it for you. A quick bio break and you are on your way again. I tend to find on those journeys you also sync the charging with lunch or shopping and you aren’t waiting for anything.

 

[ICDP]

So let's assume you're right, and I'm using averages wrong, instead of telling me (and everyone else they are wrong), explain how they are useful in this context, if a £30k 100 mile range car meets barely anyone's needs.

Bear in mind that most people aren't going to buy a car that meets their average needs, they're going to buy one which meets 90%+ of their needs, because even if they only need to do a 200 mile trip once a month, having to hire a car for that is going to be both inconvenient and expensive.

Edit: actually, I've just realised who these cars are designed for; they're absolutely perfect for the anti-EV press - the headlines almost write themselves - "EVs not suitable for average driver". "The average UK driver spends £30k on a car, so we took one for a test drive, and it barely does 100 miles, while statistics show that this is more than enough for most people's average journey, it doesn't take into account longer trips, and those are out of the question with an EV"

It's genius, they don't even have to lie or pretend they're bumbling idiots who can't work out how to use a public charger!

At no point have I argued about value. All I am pointing out is that the two average metrics are an indication that a significant majority of people clearly do low mileage and short journeys. Ergo car manufacturers will decide there is sufficient market for a short range EV.

The fact you are an outlier on the average is irrelevant to the main trend. It’s also why there are longer range EVs to cater for those with longer range needs.

 

[tonys]

There must be a lot of people doing only 2000 miles a year or making many short trips all day long then. I'd be really surprised if this is the case - where are the majority of people going if most trips are under 5 miles?

If this really is true then the answer is probably something other than a £40,000 electric car.

They will be going to the supermarket, school run, local work, visiting friends and family. An EV would be ideal for that usage as an ICE car would be barely warm in winter on those journeys. Someone with the money would purchase a car like that for that kind of money, I wouldn't be able but I purchased a Mokka for £16,000 just for those journeys and the longer ones when we go out for the day or holidays.

 

[[TW]Fox]

If all I ever did was 5 mile journeys then I can think of no reason at all why I wouldn't have an electric car. It makes perfect sense for that sort of use.

 

[Haggisman]

They will be going to the supermarket, school run, local work, visiting friends and family. An EV would be ideal for that usage as an ICE car would be barely warm in winter on those journeys. Someone with the money would purchase a car like that for that kind of money, I wouldn't be able but I purchased a Mokka for £16,000 just for those journeys and the longer ones when we go out for the day or holidays.

Agreed, a cheap short range EV is perfect for that kind of use...

But a £30k car that's so limited? I just can't see the sense in it when you can get much longer range car for less money, or a similar ranged car for a fraction of the price.

It's like they've taken 2 datapoints (average mileage & average amount spent on a car) in isolation, and decided that's the sweet spot.

At no point have I argued about value.

But value is one of the most important metrics for most people.

If it was a £20k car then nobody would be questioning it, it would be perfect as a second car for someone after a cheap run-around.

I could understand if it was a "prestige" marque, or some kind of high performance hot hatch, or a capable off-roader, or a big estate with loads of space for lugging gear around, or a people carrier for passenger capacity, or... well, basically anything but a bog standard small run-around, but come on, it's a Mazda shopping cart?! It needs to be £10k cheaper.

I'd be curious to see how many they've actually sold.

If all I ever did was 5 mile journeys then I can think of no reason at all why I wouldn't have an electric car. It makes perfect sense for that sort of use.

But would you spend £30k on a small hatchback?

 

[delta0]

If all I ever did was 5 mile journeys then I can think of no reason at all why I wouldn't have an electric car. It makes perfect sense for that sort of use.

I think 200-250 miles per day for most EVs is a fine daily range if you want to only use home charging. There’s a few that are now around 300 or miles so the range is going up. This is motorway miles of course.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

But would you spend £30k on a small hatchback?

This is the key point to emphasise.

Why spend £30k on this when you can get a Yaris, Corsa, Juke, etc etc for considerably less, that will also do the odd airport run without need a recharge half way there.

The £10k premium for this car is A LOT of fuel to save over it lifetime of not doing many miles.

To put it into perspective, you can get a 2022 Model 3 standard range for £25k that will also have 2 years manufacturer warranty, twice the range, twice the power, arguably a less flexible boot but no stupid rear doors.

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The car just makes no sense unless you just don’t like money. It will depreciate £17k in 2 years!!

Here is a 2022 model on a 72 plate for under £13k, only 7200 miles on the clock. That’s £2.36/mile in depreciation - ‘shocking’. I bet the car was more than £30k in 2022 too…

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[[TW]Fox]

The 'why buy a new car when you can buy a used car' argument has been going since cars were invented though.

 

[ICDP]

And why would anyone buy a used Tesla when a 10 year old Mondeo would do for a lot less. This isn’t about value, because relative value has always been a thing.

Why pay more for an Audi when you can get a Hyundai? Why buy an iPhone when a cheap Chinese android will do?

You can argue the relative merits on the value of an MX-30 but what you can’t argue is there is a much bigger market for short range EVs than there is for long range EVs.

 

[Journey]

Here is a 2022 model on a 72 plate for under £13k, only 7200 miles on the clock. That’s £2.36/mile in depreciation - ‘shocking’. I bet the car was more than £30k in 2022 too…

Lol, you beat me to it.

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23 plate version for £14.5k with under 3k miles on it.

Mazda/Japanese (other than Nissan) are so far behind it's unreal, yet when the push them out they make something half baked and over priced. Koreans are eating them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.