When are you going fully electric?

[sandys]

I'm rapidly going from PHEVs are the answer to a decision of sticking with ICE or pushing for full EV. Two empty BP Pulse points right outside the hotel as well helps the case for the EV option...

Just go and get one on loan, find out for yourself, Volvo gave me two cars for a weekend XC40 and XC60, Merc too.

EV is the answer if you can make it work but PHEV is awesome otherwise. My long term average is 160mpg, though my last tank was ~3.2k @ 214mpg, adding in the cost of electric used brought that down to 115mpg.

 

[lordrobs]

Yeah I'm knocking them from a purely selfish viewpoint. The idea of EV for short trips and no charging requirements for longer ones sounds great... until you realise that 85% of your journey is with heavily compromised fuel economy. Not everyone is pinballing around the UK like me though. If I was going for an extended test drive ideally I'd need one mid week, with a decent work trip and a load of kit to take

@b0rn2sk8 Yeah, they look great and I'm sure it would be a good option once they hit the sub £30k used bracket but right now they aren't an option with the budget I've been given.

The biggest eye opener for me is just how expensive cars are now. Last time I had to do this was mid 2019 and I picked up my Leon pre-reg with 10 miles on the clock for less than £16k

 

[b0rn2sk8]

@b0rn2sk8 Yeah, they look great and I'm sure it would be a good option once they hit the sub £30k used bracket but right now they aren't an option with the budget I've been given.

Will not be long, They are selling brand new for £37k, nothing used on the market yet as they only just launched but give it 6 months once the plate changes in March and there will be a few knocking around at £30k without doubt.

 

[Journey]

I'm rapidly going from PHEVs are the answer to a decision of sticking with ICE or pushing for full EV. Two empty BP Pulse points right outside the hotel as well helps the case for the EV option...

Ah BP Pulse, a network I block out of my travels. Assume they don't work or will charge you at least and arm and a leg, and then fail after doing so and delivering only a couple kWh.

Have you seen that you could get a Tesla Model Y LR for ~£30k now? Efficient(ish), supercharger network available at every location, reasonably premium interior, comfortable. Worth taking one for a test drive if you haven't thought of it.

 

[dlockers]

Dayumm, I always thought the Model X was crazy money. There are some at like 25k on AT. Has the model just fallen foul or whats up?

 

[chanjy]

Dayumm, I always thought the Model X was crazy money. There are some at like 25k on AT. Has the model just fallen foul or whats up?

They are just the older cars now so normal depreciation I guess

@lordrobs does it have to be purchase rather than a lease?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Dayumm, I always thought the Model X was crazy money. There are some at like 25k on AT. Has the model just fallen foul or whats up?

The newest Model RHD X is 4 years old, the oldest are, over 7 years old now.

Yeh expensive old cars depreciate like expensive old cars!

 

[dlockers]

The newest Model RHD X is 4 years old, the oldest are, over 7 years old now.

Yeh expensive old cars depreciate like expensive old cars!

It was like 100k tho wasn't it? That's a steap curve.

 

[blun]

90% of my work trips require me to carry a laptop and an overnight bag. Unfortunately that other 10% requires quite bulky kit hence the need for a big square load bay with easy access.

Also 9 years of company estate cars has got me accustomed to being able to sling a fridge freezer , washing machine, sofa, half of IKEA, mountain bike etc. in the back when required. It isn't all the time but I do appreciate being able to do it when I have a need. That practicality plus not having to worry about the odd scratched bit of trim = rental van levels of load lugging ability

I never really got the negativity against PHEVs... Untill I seriously started to look into getting one. I read a long term review of the C5 Aircross (I can get a new one in budget so I had to at least give it a look) and the guy got 35mpg out of it over several thousand miles. Now admittedly he didn't charge the thing but still. THIRTY FIVE miles per gallon. I pay for my fuel at a fixed rate and drive accordingly and my long term average is 48mpg in a bog standard petrol. I get that it's an SUV Vs an estate but the only reason I'm considering SUVs is because PHEV estates are generally so compromised in load space.

Now obviously I'll plug it in but I've just done 260 miles to Newport for work. If I went for a Sportage it has a 40 mile electric range. Now I know it's more clever than to burn that up and then run on petrol for 220 miles but... In effect that is the blend of fuel for the trip I just did. I was getting a bit of a lick on (cruise set to +10% +2) and I saw nearly 48mpg in the Leon. Would I see worse than that in a 'save the polar bears' BIK bonus PHEV?!

I'm rapidly going from PHEVs are the answer to a decision of sticking with ICE or pushing for full EV. Two empty BP Pulse points right outside the hotel as well helps the case for the EV option...

PHEV only makes sense if you do mainly short trips AND charge it every day (or multiple times a day). And if that is your use case, then an EV works even better.

If you do long trips the PHEV battery is useful for a small % of the trip and a big heavy dead weight for the rest, resulting in poor MPG. In this scenario go for either a diesel or a decent BEV.

 

[sandys]

PHEV only makes sense if you do mainly short trips AND charge it every day (or multiple times a day). And if that is your use case, then an EV works even better.

If you do long trips the PHEV battery is useful for a small % of the trip and a big heavy dead weight for the rest, resulting in poor MPG. In this scenario go for either a diesel or a decent BEV.

You don't really get poor mpg on long trips with a PHEV and a depleted battery, you just get what you get from the standard engine, yes if you have a load of hills etc then maybe the weight will use more, but generally its not bad when running on motorways etc, if you have a dead battery once you get into the city and have a big heavy SUV sure its bad but it's going to be bad if its a diesel too, what the PHEV has is options to mitigate such as charging via the engine on route and stuff like that to ensure you have charge in the places you know you will need it, works well.

Think about when you do family holidays etc, car loaded up, does it suddenly drop from 50mpg to 20, no, you loose a couple of mpg tops, no different with a PHEV and its extra weight, except there are energy recovery opportunities.

I swapped my diesel 4x4 for a similarly sized xc60 PHEV, there has been no penalty for me on long trips, the PHEV even with a petrol has been better in every scenario, plus I have twice the power and torque and more range than any BEV even when pulling a caravan, not a lot to dislike IMO.

 

[lordrobs]

Have you seen that you could get a Tesla Model Y LR for ~£30k now? Efficient(ish), supercharger network available at every location, reasonably premium interior, comfortable. Worth taking one for a test drive if you haven't thought of it.

Interesting... I might suggest that they get the sales guy a new car first and come back to me in 6 months as it seems there are loads of options just on the cusp of hitting the price bracket I think I can get them to stretch to.

@lordrobs does it have to be purchase rather than a lease?

Not sure, I'm not in the inner sanctum so I don't know what the finances are like. The fact I was approached just after the annual accounts were done leads me to think there is cash in the bank. Under the current ownership all cars have been owned outright and there were bad lease experiences previously.

I'm tempted to just have a frank discussion with them because 100% write down might be something that has been overlooked and a more expensive new BEV could end up being MUCH cheaper for them than a used PHEV/ICE. Depends how good last year was as to whether that's a factor.

 

[Simon]

Ah BP Pulse, a network I block out of my travels. Assume they don't work or will charge you at least and arm and a leg, and then fail after doing so and delivering only a couple kWh.

Have you seen that you could get a Tesla Model Y LR for ~£30k now? Efficient(ish), supercharger network available at every location, reasonably premium interior, comfortable. Worth taking one for a test drive if you haven't thought of it.

I forget how annoying your posts are. Never blocked anyone but think you are worthy of being the first

 

[Tinders]

@lordrobs My mileage is probably similar to yours. On a run my 330e is 45 mpg without charging. It’s only terrible mpg when I’m doing local stop start driving such as the school run, which is 27mpg in winter, that’s where it’s far more efficient to charge and use EV only. I know people with the sportage, v60, merc c300e , Audi a3 Phev even the F pace, and they all get decent mpg on a run well into the 40’s. And if you start with a charge well into the 50’s.

 

[OspreyO]

Not entirely sure how people are getting diesel like fuel economy with a fully loaded vehicle with a petrol engine. Considering the fuel claims of diesel were widely inaccurate.

When tested the the official studies suggest phevs aren't getting close to their manufacturers fuel economy or emissions in the real world and people in general don't charge them as much as they could.

If the fuel economy is that good on petrol only in a PHEV, then a non hybrid petrol (or diesel) would be even better. If you are doing a lot of trips beyond the range of the battery or not charging it.

But if people are happy with them that's all that matters.

 

[Tinders]

My long term MPG is 49mpg over ~90k miles. in 4 years thats not too shabby, 26k miles were electric miles. The manufacturer stated figure are complete nonsense, but the cars are still capable of respectable economy. Not bad at all for 2.0 turbo with 250 hp.

 

[sandys]

Not entirely sure how people are getting diesel like fuel economy with a fully loaded vehicle with a petrol engine. Considering the fuel claims of diesel were widely inaccurate.

When tested the the official studies suggest phevs aren't getting close to their manufacturers fuel economy or emissions in the real world and people in general don't charge them as much as they could.

If the fuel economy is that good on petrol only in a PHEV, then a non hybrid petrol (or diesel) would be even better. If you are doing a lot of trips beyond the range of the battery or not charging it.

But if people are happy with them that's all that matters.

Not even sure if you can even buy a non hybrid these days whether petrol or diesel they all have some sort of small battery and ISG before you even get to a plugin.

Just technology progression really, cars get better over time, obviously when I compare my PHEV to my diesel, my diesel was from 2010s so hardly the latest and greatest, the petrol now has direct injection, plus anything that used to hang off the engine parasitically is now detached/electric, more effort has also been spent on aero and rolling resistance etc to meet new targets, just how it is. Obviously having a charged battery for high consumption regions makes things a lot better.

Driving around the city in my 2 tonne SUV with a depleted battery was barely any worse than my old 1.1 tonne city car as it would do enough on the stop start in B mode to pretty much act like a hybrid, seemingly always enough charge to take up the start up /pull away load even if not to use for full drive.

My new city car is better on fuel now but its sub a tonne and 1.0, so quite a bit different, it can almost go in the boot of my SUV (joke, it’s an Up! No really that small ) but it’s not that much better really than the SUV and of course in the city the SUV when charged is just on electric, it’s very rare we forget to plug it in, more often than not it’s the case that you say to yourself that charge will be fine for tomorrow, don’t put it on charge and then something comes up and you have to do 200 miles or something, no biggy, big tank of fuel.

Of course it’s a compromise but if you know your average mileage you can calculate if it will work for you once you take out the fringe cases.

A diesel still has its place but regulations and poor rep mean that not many are pushing these.

My long term MPG is 49mpg over ~90k miles. in 4 years thats not too shabby, 26k miles were electric miles. The manufacturer stated figure are complete nonsense, but the cars are still capable of respectable economy. Not bad at all for 2.0 turbo with 250 hp.

Yup my manufacturer mpg is 283, nope, never gonna happen

 

[TheVoice]

Not even sure if you can even buy a non hybrid these days whether petrol or diesel they all have some sort of small battery and ISG before you even get to a plugin.

You certainly can, some are even dropping the mild hybrid entirely.

 

[OspreyO]

Not even sure if you can even buy a non hybrid these days whether petrol or diesel they all have some sort of small battery and ISG before you even get to a plugin.

Just technology progression really, cars get better over time, obviously when I compare my PHEV to my diesel, my diesel was from 2010s so hardly the latest and greatest, the petrol now has direct injection, plus anything that used to hang off the engine parasitically is now detached/electric, more effort has also been spent on aero and rolling resistance etc to meet new targets, just how it is. Obviously having a charged battery for high consumption regions makes things a lot better.

Driving around the city in my 2 tonne SUV with a depleted battery was barely any worse than my old 1.1 tonne city car as it would do enough on the stop start in B mode to pretty much act like a hybrid, seemingly always enough charge to take up the start up /pull away load even if not to use for full drive.

My new city car is better on fuel now but its sub a tonne and 1.0, so quite a bit different, it can almost go in the boot of my SUV (joke, it’s an Up! No really that small ) but it’s not that much better really than the SUV and of course in the city the SUV when charged is just on electric, it’s very rare we forget to plug it in, more often than not it’s the case that you say to yourself that charge will be fine for tomorrow, don’t put it on charge and then something comes up and you have to do 200 miles or something, no biggy, big tank of fuel.

Of course it’s a compromise but if you know your average mileage you can calculate if it will work for you once you take out the fringe cases.

A diesel still has its place but regulations and poor rep mean that not many are pushing these.



Yup my manufacturer mpg is 283, nope, never gonna happen

My point is your not beating a modern diesel on mpg and emissions are within the regulations. If mpg is your objective.

For sure if People use the PHEV as intended it fits a niche. The problem is too many don't. But it's being used a workaround to get around the objective rather than a solution to it.

Lots to be said for a small city car. That said mine never did great mpg because you had to work it harder than a bigger engine even in the city.

We are moving further away from having just enough to do the job, to an excess of ability so we are transported two tonnes of metal around when it's completely unnecessary. But there's no real impediment to doing that.

 

[Tinders]

In the main the only people that buy PHEV's are the company car drivers. Im glad the diesels are taxed into oblivion, hated the noise, hated filling them up with the slimey pump aswell

Phev's are a nice product, but you can get brilliant MPG, whilst still having a relatively decent car/engine combo. The self charging hybrid ala Prius, whilst great MPG is a 'horrible' car to drive, they are rediculously reliable though.

 

[lordrobs]

My long term MPG is 49mpg over ~90k miles. in 4 years thats not too shabby, 26k miles were electric miles. The manufacturer stated figure are complete nonsense, but the cars are still capable of respectable economy. Not bad at all for 2.0 turbo with 250 hp.

Pretty much the same economy as my Leon but your car has double the power! Yeah, I think we probably do similar. My onsite work was slow to recover from COVID (education sector) but I'm back around 25k a year.

So, I've done the numbers on the Sportage. Maybe I was a bit quick to knock it...

Loads of caveats here but per year this is how much I'll be better off by;
Never charge it and stick to paying private miles at HMRC rate = £402
Charged on my current tariff = £1057
Charged on Intelligent Octopus (requires proper charger) = £1427

Now for the caveats... this is based on paying 20% on the BIK but my bonus always pushes me over the threshold. If we get a bonus this year the BIK savings are worth much more than my calculated values. It also doesn't allow for 'profit' on work trips which will be paid at 16ppm from the off while, in theory at least, I'll do the first 35 miles at about half that (or less), maybe another £150 a year to be saved from that alone even without an off peak tariff. The savings also diminish over time as the bands increase 1% year on year and 1% on £22k is a lot less than 1% on £40k.

I'll run the Enyaq numbers next. Honestly, I don't think the boss will go for it but the savings may well give me the motivation to fight my corner a little harder! Sums are a bit harder as there is there is home vs public charging costs to consider.