When are you going fully electric?

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Not sure I agree with that and no one is talking about checking Twitter on the cars infotainment screen, that is obviously unacceptable.

Driving without due care and attention is a principle and not prescriptive which leads to a huge amount of nuance depending on the specific scenario that it’s being applied to. There is no blanket if you do X then it’s breaking that law.

E.G. spending a few seconds to adjust the ventilation while sat at a red traffic light isn’t likely to cause you to fall foul of it. If you then pulled away without checking your mirrors and blinds spots causing you to run down a cyclist then it probably would. Looking at the screen or physical buttons was almost irrelevant as it didn’t cause the problem, failing to check the mirrors did.

Maybe, who knows, its difficult to know what hes going to be staring at and playing with for a few seconds, could be watching the vent controls I guess
BUt really it doesnt matter, anything thats not considered essential from driving falls under the catch all of dangerous, if by definition, doing so was dangerous.
Eating food, drinking water etc all count.

Clearly when moving most things bring completely different points when you would reasonably be considered dangerous.
The thing is the law and motoring is very black and white, with most references being in charge of as opposed to driving. Eg being inside a car with the keys whilst drunk is still an offence whether you intended to drive or not.
Its going to take some wierd cop to go for that offence but still...

Hopefully at some point the law will catchup. There should be a reasonable defence of automation where the driver effectively hands over control and ceases to be incharge. But as I said this is going to go into an as yet untested area, who will become responsible, the car maker, the software designer, the sensor manufacturer, all, its going to be interesting.

 

[jamoor]

No, there is a specific law about using a handheld device (e.g. a phone) but everything else falls under the catch all of driving without due care and attention which is fairly self explanatory and can apply to anything from someone turning around to a passenger to putting your make up on.

Yeah so fiddling with a screen is legal then. The screen is better.

 

[Russinating]

I would imagine in years to come someone might build a leccy car which can emulate a petrol, sure it'll have fake exhaust sounds & the gearbox might not really be a gearbox but someone might actually put some effort in to actually designing one.

What a weird and backwards point of view. Do you have a fake CRT monitor as well that's actually a flatscreen with an empty back?

 

[Conscript]

What a weird and backwards point of view. Do you have a fake CRT monitor as well that's actually a flatscreen with an empty back?

Come on. Surely you can see this isn't a fair analogy when comparing driving enjoyment between ICE/EV?

No one uses a CRT anymore because they are totally obsolete - there's nothing they can do, practically or aesthetically, which modern flatscreens cant do better. Whereas there are aspects of driving which, while they might be considered obsolete from a practical point of view, are still enjoyable traits, but which an EV does not include. Manual clutch/gearbox, engine note, etc - none of these are present in an EV due to their nature, but it doesn't mean they aren't desirable traits for some enthusiasts of driving.

Saying you'd like an EV car which attempts to emulate some of those aspects is no more backwards or weird than someone who says they prefer a manual clutch/gearbox for driving enjoyment, even in an age where automatics are faster, more economic and easier.

 

[jamoor]

Come on. Surely you can see this isn't a fair analogy when comparing driving enjoyment between ICE/EV?

No one uses a CRT anymore because they are totally obsolete - there's nothing they can do, practically or aesthetically, which modern flatscreens cant do better. Whereas there are aspects of driving which, while they might be considered obsolete from a practical point of view, are still enjoyable traits, but which an EV does not include. Manual clutch/gearbox, engine note, etc - none of these are present in an EV due to their nature, but it doesn't mean they aren't desirable traits for some enthusiasts of driving.

Saying you'd like an EV car which attempts to emulate some of those aspects is no more backwards or weird than someone who says they prefer a manual clutch/gearbox for driving enjoyment, even in an age where automatics are faster, more economic and easier.

Why not just buy a petrol car instead?

 

[Conscript]

Why not just buy a petrol car instead?

Why are you asking me? I wasn't the one who made the original post, ask @Iamzod. I was just pointing out that calling his viewpoint backwards or weird wasn't entirely fair.

But to speak for him, I imagine he's talking about being able to own an EV and all the benefits that entails, whilst still enjoying everything he likes about driving an ICE vehicle. And much as I hope it doesn't happen, we might find ourselves in a future where owning an ICE vehicle isn't possible or practical for the vast majority, either due to legislation, or just market forces, and so it wouldn't be unreasonable to pine for some of the things we might miss from petrol cars.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Yeah so fiddling with a screen is legal then. The screen is better.

Thats a strange take away

Doing any activity in a car whilst in control of the car that is not deemed necessary to actually drive the car can potentially fall under dangerous driving.
Its all about context and timing.
They specifically amended the law in regards to phones as people seemed unable to accept they shouldn't be using them. Although specifically they can still charge when stationery at lights for example as the offence is not whilst moving.
Sat navs for example advise you should not be interacting with them whilst driving.

 

[Journey]

Can a mod try and get this thread back on topic? Touch screens in cars are not exclusive to EV's, end of story.

 

[sovietspybob]

If you still want to use a gearbox and clutch you'd be best off converting a classic car to EV. Best of both worlds.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Why are you asking me? I wasn't the one who made the original post, ask @Iamzod. I was just pointing out that calling his viewpoint backwards or weird wasn't entirely fair.

But to speak for him, I imagine he's talking about being able to own an EV and all the benefits that entails, whilst still enjoying everything he likes about driving an ICE vehicle. And much as I hope it doesn't happen, we might find ourselves in a future where owning an ICE vehicle isn't possible or practical for the vast majority, either due to legislation, or just market forces, and so it wouldn't be unreasonable to pine for some of the things we might miss from petrol cars.

I cant see why it wouldnt be possible.
The question I guess would be would there actually be enough demand.

I mean you could have an ICE mode when a gear stick was enabled and the power was controlled to make it less linear, and somehow more like an ICE

A car enthusiasts wants are always likely to diverge from the mass markets, who likely for example probably wouldnt want to pay extra fro an ice mode with manual gears etc in an EV
The real question will be if there is enough demand for that type of thing, because for sure you can then envision someone providing it, if there are enough wanting it, and probably more crucially, willing to pay for it

 

[booyaka]

Can a mod try and get this thread back on topic? Touch screens in cars are not exclusive to EV's, end of story.

agreed - Touchscreen or not has nothing to do with why people want EV or ICE

 

[sovietspybob]

This looks pretty involving to drive to me https://youtu.be/v68j01KiLG8?t=441

 

[Russinating]

Come on. Surely you can see this isn't a fair analogy when comparing driving enjoyment between ICE/EV?

No one uses a CRT anymore because they are totally obsolete - there's nothing they can do, practically or aesthetically, which modern flatscreens cant do better. Whereas there are aspects of driving which, while they might be considered obsolete from a practical point of view, are still enjoyable traits, but which an EV does not include. Manual clutch/gearbox, engine note, etc - none of these are present in an EV due to their nature, but it doesn't mean they aren't desirable traits for some enthusiasts of driving.

Saying you'd like an EV car which attempts to emulate some of those aspects is no more backwards or weird than someone who says they prefer a manual clutch/gearbox for driving enjoyment, even in an age where automatics are faster, more economic and easier.

Enjoyment is totally personal so they are the same; you're not seeing it the same because you view CRTs vs TFTs in exactly the same way as I view ICEs vs EVs.

With flat screens there's less space to customise or be aesthetic, like the different coloured iMac G3s that people would choose to express themselves. There's nowhere I can put my stickers now, I used to have them all over the sides of my monitor. In some ways they were easier to transport as well; a sturdy handle on the top and the whole thing could just sit upright. These new flat screens have to be transported flat and I worry about the screen getting damaged. I really miss the degauss button as well, there was something really tactile about pressing it and getting rid of all the static (or whatever it is they did!). They just felt more "real" and "sturdy" as well.

All the above is devil's advocate, not actually what I think and a total extreme, but you get the point.

The original poster wasn't talking about driving enjoyment; I have no problem with someone wanting to drive a petrol muscle car around a track. If that's their point of view then the answer to this thread is "never". What they seemed to suggest is that current EV designs are rubbish and that they should be designed with fake exhaust pipes, gear sticks that do nothing and speakers that output a fake engine noise... just because.

 

[ianh]

I'd be happy to swap over once I feel that the charging infrastructure and/or battery range is sufficiently good enough that the transition would be painless compared to say an average family ICE car. So things like charging if you live in a terrace street with non-allocated on road parking where you can't guarantee where you'll be parked every night so a fixed charge point is out and you can't run an extension lead down the street etc, or if you have to drive from Stoke to say Scotland (or the reverse) etc for a trip/holiday you'd need to recharge somewhere on the trip up which then involves extra time, hassle of finding a charging spot on the trip AND at the venue etc.

Once those kinds of "everyday" issues are fixed to a point where swapping wouldn't feel like a "downgrade" then I'm all in as I quite like the few Tesla's I've been in so far.

 

[Russinating]

I'd be happy to swap over once I feel that the charging infrastructure and/or battery range is sufficiently good enough that the transition would be painless compared to say an average family ICE car. So things like charging if you live in a terrace street with non-allocated on road parking where you can't guarantee where you'll be parked every night so a fixed charge point is out and you can't run an extension lead down the street etc, or if you have to drive from Stoke to say Scotland (or the reverse) etc for a trip/holiday you'd need to recharge somewhere on the trip up which then involves extra time, hassle of finding a charging spot on the trip AND at the venue etc.

Once those kinds of "everyday" issues are fixed to a point where swapping wouldn't feel like a "downgrade" then I'm all in as I quite like the few Tesla's I've been in so far.

I live on a terrace street with non-allocated on road parking. How often do you drive from Stoke to Scotland? You say "everyday" issue but I'm guessing that's not often. In any case, that's why you buy into Tesla; you can drive to Eastern Europe and not have to charge at anything but Tesla Superchargers.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Come on. Surely you can see this isn't a fair analogy when comparing driving enjoyment between ICE/EV?

No one uses a CRT anymore because they are totally obsolete - there's nothing they can do, practically or aesthetically, which modern flatscreens cant do better. Whereas there are aspects of driving which, while they might be considered obsolete from a practical point of view, are still enjoyable traits, but which an EV does not include. Manual clutch/gearbox, engine note, etc - none of these are present in an EV due to their nature, but it doesn't mean they aren't desirable traits for some enthusiasts of driving.

Saying you'd like an EV car which attempts to emulate some of those aspects is no more backwards or weird than someone who says they prefer a manual clutch/gearbox for driving enjoyment, even in an age where automatics are faster, more economic and easier.

Plenty of people use crts.

As for them being inferior.

They had less than 2ms of input lag the average screen these days is multiples of that.

Also you can use a light gun with a crt. I absolutely loved having a gun in my had blowing away bad guys and targets, etc. There hasn't been a decent replacement since apart from motion control and infrared on the wii nunchuks using a seperate light bar because nothing will work with the actual screen anymore.

Crts are still in very high demand for retro gamers.

 

[Fusion]

The CRT point is interesting. Funnily enough, there were people that resisted transition to LCD for quite some time, because the technology either was inferior, or was perceived to be inferior. There were plenty of debates about contrast, black levels, response times, refresh rate and all these things. In 2020, no-one cares any more- CRTs were surpassed years ago, and it’s been put to bed. Perhaps we’re having the same debate with cars, but 15/20 years further behind on the adoption curve than for monitors.

I’m sure anyone browsing this thread and others in 2035/2040 will laugh at how hysterical some of us can get over an emerging technology. Once there have been a few more iterations of battery development, we’ll all forget about it.

 

[booyaka]

I'd be happy to swap over once I feel that the charging infrastructure and/or battery range is sufficiently good enough that the transition would be painless compared to say an average family ICE car. So things like charging if you live in a terrace street with non-allocated on road parking where you can't guarantee where you'll be parked every night so a fixed charge point is out and you can't run an extension lead down the street etc, or if you have to drive from Stoke to say Scotland (or the reverse) etc for a trip/holiday you'd need to recharge somewhere on the trip up which then involves extra time, hassle of finding a charging spot on the trip AND at the venue etc.

Once those kinds of "everyday" issues are fixed to a point where swapping wouldn't feel like a "downgrade" then I'm all in as I quite like the few Tesla's I've been in so far.

Having driven from Ayrshire to Manchester and back in a day (circa 450 miles round trip, 4 hours each way) in my SR+ Tesla - i'm not sure you fully understand how simple and easy it is to do. Certainly no longer time wise than ICE car.

One stop at Westmoreland Services (M6) each way for 14 minutes on the way down and 18 minutes on the way back to top up on the Tesla supercharger, and on my way again. I would be stopping for a coffee/toilet break anyway so it's zero hassle to park up, plug in, walk into the services and then stroll back out, unplug and drive away. Total cost for the journey was £15.40. Zero extra time added to the journey.

You don't need to charge every night unless you are doing 400/500 miles a week. I'm off to the middle of the Scottish Highlands this week with the family - small cottage, middle of nowhere. I'll use 3 pin plug top up overnight IF I need to charge, then whilst out and about, I'll find a charger (free) if I need one. I don't charge if I don't need to. Some people have this thing about constantly finding chargers everywhere they go....If I need a charge, I will, but otherwise, just wait till I need to.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The CRT point is interesting. Funnily enough, there were people that resisted transition to LCD for quite some time, because the technology either was inferior, or was perceived to be inferior. There were plenty of debates about contrast, black levels, response times, refresh rate and all these things.

Because when LCD appeared it was inferior in many respects to CRT. It was a long time before LCD screens offered the flexibility, refresh rates, contrast and response times of a high end CRT. But, eventually, the technology got there and consequently CRT's vanished.

Of course its not quite the same with cars because for quite a lot of people there are little to no downsides of ICE cars and therefore the perceived benefits of moving to EV are smaller. Whereas nobody could deny the size of a 19" CRT wasn't absolutely ridiculous on your desk

I think EV's are really interesting and when it's sensible to do so (ie not when I'm 2 years in after ordering it brand new) I'd love to replace our Mini Cooper with a Mini Electric. It'll be cool to have an EV, it's fun tech and it'll be nice to buzz around town with zero sound. But I'm not going to go full fanboy and pretend that the EV is and always will be the answer to everyones motoring requirements. For many people, being able to spend 90 seconds putting 70 litres of liquid in a car that gives you 700 miles of range is something that is very valuable.

Of course the other thing I like about the Mini Electric is that it is in every respects a conventional car - it looks and feels like any other Mini.

For me the tipping point will likely be when there is a decent credible EV option in a range of regular cars. Even BMW don't quite get it - the electric models need to just look the same as everything else. Where is the fully EV E Class and 5 Series? Why must it always be standalone models that look weird?

 

[Journey]

Even BMW don't quite get it - the electric models need to just look the same as everything else.

In your opinion.

Where is the fully EV E Class and 5 Series?

BMW and Mercedes is the one you should be asking that too, Mercedes have missed out on two car sales from my family alone due to having no BEV offerings other than a stupid GLC converted ICE car, the EQC.

Why must it always be standalone models that look weird?

I think you are only talking about BMW here, and maybe Nissan but the Leaf launched 10 years ago almost, and they wanted it to be 'different'. The Renault Zoe looks much like a Ka, or a Clio, my Ioniq looks the same as the MHEV/ICE Ioniq, the Mini looks like the Mini, and I would actually say the vast majority of BEV's are just ICE cars made electric, so do look the same.

I suppose if you like things to always look the same, and never change, and just stick with what you know which keeps you comfortable then great. I call that boring, imagine if architecture never changed and every house looked the same.