Who are you voting for on Thursday?

Do you actually want to discuss the issues we're talking about, or are you just trolling me for some reason?

I thought I was discussing the issues? I was just pointing out that there are many things we disagree with but banning them isnt the answer. Much like "No Platforming" at universities and the like.

I'm not requesting a ban on racist views and I'm all for free speech. But, some of the views expressed here are bordering on racial hatred, which is undeniably wrong.

Even racial hatred isn't illegal, inciting it is and you would be hard pressed to suggest dirtydog has been doing that. I don't like racism, I certainly don't like the BNP but I dislike arbitary restrictions just as much.

My personal opinion is that the only reason to vote for the BNP is if you are racist. You may well use the "protest vote" excuse or it is I guess vaguely possible that you may be dim enough to believe their populist "policies" but by and large it is because of race.

edit: I'm definitely stepping away from this now.

I will be suprised if you do, haven't you said it a couple of times already? :p
 
I thought I was discussing the issues? I was just pointing out that there are many things we disagree with but banning them isnt the answer. Much like "No Platforming" at universities and the like.



Even racial hatred isn't illegal, inciting it is and you would be hard pressed to suggest dirtydog has been doing that. I don't like racism, I certainly don't like the BNP but I dislike arbitary restrictions just as much.

My personal opinion is that the only reason to vote for the BNP is if you are racist. You may well use the "protest vote" excuse or it is I guess vaguely possible that you may be dim enough to believe their populist "policies" but by and large it is because of race.



I will be suprised if you do, haven't you said it a couple of times already? :p

Well people keep replying to me! But seriously, I'm not accusing dirtydog of doing anything illegal, but I am saying that he's a racist. Sorry, but the evidence is abundant. The freedom of speech thing is tough, because I really am a strong supporter of people being allowed to say and do whatever the hell they want to do, but it has to be within reason, and racism just isn't.
 
Conservative or UKIP, haven't really decided yet, I agree with UKIPs manifesto however Conservatives Dan Hannen is well worth my vote too, myself and the wife might just vote for each.
 
We are net contributors, so we suffer crumbling roads etc. while we pay for Spain to have nice new ones. Madness.


Yes, paid for by us with money that could have gone on our infrastructure.

A bit like slaving hard at work and living in a rundown house, and giving your wages to your neighbour so he can live in a nice new one. Does that seem sensible to you?

Maybe the problem is with the UK and not the EU in terms of infrastructure?
The UK spends millions in areas that other member states don't, the UK is highly inefficient. It takes on average months for a road to get repaired, while in Luxembourg it takes them a day, ONE day. The UK enjoys essentially tariff free trade since they are an EU member, what do you think would happen if the EU suddenly dissappeared?
It is thanks to the EU and their rules that the UK economy hasn't crumbled during the recession as the trade rules don't allow for tariffs. British farmers also enjoy an immense investment and because of the EU's Agricultural policy most farmers can still earn something, protected from cheaper produce from Asia.
 
Well people keep replying to me! But seriously, I'm not accusing dirtydog of doing anything illegal, but I am saying that he's a racist. Sorry, but the evidence is abundant. The freedom of speech thing is tough, because I really am a strong supporter of people being allowed to say and do whatever the hell they want to do, but it has to be within reason, and racism just isn't.

But who decides what is and is not 'within reason'? Free speech is what it is. Once you start chopping, changing and playing semantics it isn't free any more. At least, that's what they tell us when they allow hook-handed foreigners to stand in our capital city calling for any white man born in this country to be beheaded, so that Islam can take over?

"No, no... Sorry mate, free speech."

You try standing there after they've finished and calling for all Muslims to be shot with a bullet coated in pigs' blood and the bodies deported. See what happens to free speech then :p

</Devil's advocate>

I voted Conservative for the EU election, though I admit I was floating until the last moment. I wouldn't vote Labour, and the Lib Dem here atm is a bare faced hypocrite, so it was BNP or Conservative in the end.
 
Unfortunetaly I cannot vote this time around as I had exams and forgot to register.
But I am sick to death of seeing people being so anti-EU on this forum, I will bet none of you has actually seen first hand the work EU does.
France, Germany and Italy all give more money to the EU than the UK (link and yet they don't complain nearly as much as you:rolleyes:.
Let's take an example, the Kelvingrove Museum here in Glasgow received about 2,5million £ from the EU regional development fund when it was refurbished a few years back (link. The EU does take more than it gives from the UK, but Germany gives more and yet is more fully integrated into the Union. The reason why the EU seems to "take" more than it gives is because they want to essentially help those memberstates which are not as well off as the UK and others in the belief that we should all work together to create a better world for all of us. Since Greece joined the EU, they have enjoyed a massive investment by the EU and as such they now have better infrastructure and a better way of life.
Anyway, rant over:p.


yeah but most people are sick of helping out Poland etc. Would rather take a small loss in quality of life if it meant being an indepedant country and probably other people feel the same. Its not that everyone is ignorant to the slight economic advantage of being in the EU i just don't think its that major.
 
But who decides what is and is not 'within reason'? Free speech is what it is. Once you start chopping, changing and playing semantics it isn't free any more. At least, that's what they tell us when they allow hook-handed foreigners to stand in our capital city calling for any white man born in this country to be beheaded, so that Islam can take over?

"No, no... Sorry mate, free speech."

You try standing there after they've finished and calling for all Muslims to be shot with a bullet coated in pigs' blood and the bodies deported. See what happens to free speech then :p

</Devil's advocate>

You're absolutely right, but I'm talking from a personal standpoint. Freedom of speech works both ways. dirtydog can say what he likes, but I shouldn't be called out for challenging him if I think he's wrong. The freedom of speech argument here is completely unnecessary and seems to me was brought in just to throw a spanner in the works.
 
yeah but most people are sick of helping out Poland etc. Would rather take a small loss in quality of life if it meant being an indepedant country and probably other people feel the same. Its not that everyone is ignorant to the slight economic advantage of being in the EU i just don't think its that major.

Indeed, irrespective of the economic side, there is something to be said for being an independent and free nation, able to determine your own destiny and decide your own laws, taxes, spending etc. We are not allowed to do that at the moment.
 
Indeed, irrespective of the economic side, there is something to be said for being an independent and free nation, able to determine your own destiny and decide your own laws, taxes, spending etc. We are not allowed to do that at the moment.

But what's wrong with working together with all of the other nations? Who's gonna make our clothes and grow the majority of our food if we're completely independent? We don't make anything here anymore.
 
But what's wrong with working together with all of the other nations? Who's gonna make our clothes and grow the majority of our food if we're completely independent? We don't make anything here anymore.

By independent, I don't mean not trading with other countries!

I buy my food from the supermarket but I don't let the supermarket run my budget or tell me how to live my life.
 
this is what bothers me; The minister spoke out after the European Commission approved an application to designate the waters around the Rock as a Spanish site under EU nature legislation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oves-Gibraltar-waters-Navy-ship-moves-in.html

i knows its a daily mail report blabla i just couldn't find any other story on it (you would think its slightly more important news then some MP claiming a few grand)

Gibraltar has been under British rule longer then it has been Spanish. 98% of the 16 thousand or so inhabitants there want to remain under Brit rather than Spanish control. If the EU is that ignorant to cause problems with ridicilous legislation then i don't think we should be part of them for that reason.
 
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^ ah yes one of our EU 'friends' whose roads we kindly pay for, invading our territorial waters and violating our sovereignty. Have to love it.
 
By independent, I don't mean not trading with other countries!

I buy my food from the supermarket but I don't let the supermarket run my budget or tell me how to live my life.

I'm a firm believer that putting the country on immigration lockdown and kicking all "non-native" folk out would put us in a similar trading position as North Korea.
 
I'm a firm believer that putting the country on immigration lockdown and kicking all "non-native" folk out would put us in a similar trading position as North Korea.

Neither I nor the BNP advocate doing any such thing so that is a ridiculous straw man.
 
Local: Lib Dem

- Locally, Conservatives always seem to win. I'm happy with Conservatives winning the next General Election - which I think they will regardless of my vote - but I'm extremely unhappy locally so I'm throwing my vote towards a more 'social' party, which at the very least is a protest vote.

MEP: Conservatives

- I would push for Green as I am very pro-environment (yes, GW is happening, etc.) but at the same time, the EU has been managing just fine on the information from the IPCC so it seems a bit fool-hardy to have a smaller party rush into things, especially when all things considered the UK is doing its part (although arguabley it could do more). I think 'green' issues will be addressed inevitabley with recent political moves globally. So, I will vote Conservative for Europe, based on the fact that I think a less fascist/totalitarian (which are what Labour were slowly becoming), and more 'neo-liberal' (see economics) party would be best within Europe at this particular moment in time.

Oh, and for those people who think the EU aren't doing good things: visit Ireland (namely the area surrounding Galway).

All those lovely new yellow houses are courtesy of the EU. Within five years Ireland was developed into a top-tier country from its border-line destitution. IIRC, within the UK, areas such as the S.W. have been designated areas also in need of such developmental aid.

Indeed, within the UK itself - keep and eye out for those little EU plaques; you'll be surprised just how many are about.

Now, I will conceed a small point here which may surprise some, but it is important that is taken correctly and not misunderstood: I am a social-liberalist, but I also understand the importance of economical policies - I just don't think they should ever (if it can be helped) be at the expense of people.

Anyway, that being said, I really am not a racist, but like others I do get annoyed when I see people taking the **** in this country. I empathise completely with their situation and in fact happily open the doors and will help them where they can - but the fact remains, there are many people (regardless of colour really, but it does tend to be newly acquired citizens who are the problem) who will not help themselves and in fact, do not give a crap about the country.

Now, I watch the news and when I see the knife crime statistics - it is predominately black. However, that doesn't mean I think blacks should be 'removed', rather I think that they happen to be an unfortunate demographic who need help in changing their attitudes and circumstances. Anyway, this is only partially relevent to my earlier point I was making:

There are some people in this country that have no intention of integration, and you can easily see areas in London for example where the infrastructure and society has literally been destroyed because people simply don't care anymore. It is these people, through their own ignorance and choices who need addressing. It is not down to skin colour, it's down to their actions. It pities me when I see people jumping for joy that a foreigner was deported for breaking X crime as they generally have labelled all foreigners as criminals which quite clearly isn't the case. However, the point still remains: there are people here (remove the issue that some people may have to resort to crime to get by) who don't care and are damaging society.

In this vein, the protest votes for fringe parties are a good thing as hopefully those in charge will stop pussy-footing around racial issues and actually deal directly with these problems. London used to be a great city. I personally think it is nothing short of a giant ****-hole now. I'm all for having a multi-cultural society, but feeling like I'm about to be set-upon for walking through an ethnic division is seriously wrong. Now, London could easily be falling apart simply due to the incredible numbers of people living there and the disassociation it causes, but the ethnic divisions certainly are not helping the situation.

I don't think these people should be removed, but they need to be integrated.

As a 'white' I don't believe I have any more right to this country then anyone else, but I do get annoyed when things come at my expense - in that, I hate seeing my society in pain. I'm happy to help if I can, but I don't want people taking the **** - and this I think, is the thin line that many people are trying to walk.

Voting for the BNP will only create more problems; if they get into power, then God help us all - I'll voluntarily become diaspora over night - as history has a habit of repeating itself, and I'm not staying here. Even if they don't get into power, a rise in the seats of a racist party/demographic will only hamper and strengthen the stupidly detrimental PC pussy-footing that stops anyone from actually sorting out the problems.

Our 'culture' prior to the influx of foreigners wasn't as great as you think, and in reality it was built off the back of these people. However, the fact remains that we've created a liberal, 'modern' society and the damage that 'backwards' people (this is more to do with stupid ideologies then race) are doing is something I want to avoid as I'm petrified that one day our society will turn into a heartless, souless mess completely upon where it will inevitabley implode. Then what will we have? What will be the point on standing on all these shoulders of giants past if ignorance can destroy everything within a few generations?

In game-theory, good deeds will ultimately win out, but only if the numbers increase enough and the people are not naive. Those who take the **** will also win the begin with as it is the easiest way, but they ultimately lose when the altruistic wise up to their games.

Altruism will utlimately win so long as it's not naive and cuts off selfish people before they run amok. However, that said, selfishness always wins to begin with at the expense of altruistic individuals.

My point in this? Don't sell your soul - remember your humanity, but don't be an idiot either. There is a very, very fine line between caring for your community/society and bigotted racism, so make sure you're on the right side. We have managed as a society to come so far, compared to the idiotic fence-builders of the past, but we are naive if we think that those cultures who haven't yet reached this plateau aren't going to pull us backwards unless we are wary of it.

Anyway, I hope this makes sense as it is slightly philosophically, economically and socially loaded, and I'm guessing some may not get where I'm coming from. I don't think any 'drastic' revolution needs to take place, we just need to cut through the crap and start addressing what clearly needs fixing before parts of our society get much worse, isolated, and damaging.

There are clearly people here who don't give a monkeys about the country and their either need re-educating and rehabilitating, or they need to be shown the door. This goes for the whole spectrum of race, creed and colour.

The ideal here is the key, but please remember: the ends do not always justify the means, especially where people are concerned.
 
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