Who works in Enterprise IT

MCSE and quite a few of the other qualifications don't mean anywhere near what they did thanks to the boot camps and other countries who are producing 10,000's of people with them.

Experiences worth a damn sight more. Personally if I was starting again I'd get the degree, then a grad scheme into somebody big (SI or similar) and push for max training out of them.
 
bobby_valentino said:
not disagreeing but why do u guys think its better to get a degree rather then going straight into MCSE/CCNA courses?
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i dont ;)

experience experience experience imo

no amount of sterile exam's and knowledge dumps will equip you for the real world, however if I was you I'd stay in education for as long as humanly possilbe. Good jobs and wealth are one thing, amazing life experiences and freedom are quite another :)
 
A degree gives you more options/flexibility for the future and also gets you onto the grad schemes. If you can't get experience (which the grad schemes are aimed at providing) the MSCE or any other qualification isn't worth squat.
 
bigredshark said:
Well, it's the safe way but it'll take you forever more to work your way up at a lot of places and it'll be a long time before you actually get trusted with anything.

I'd say CCNA and/or MCSE is maybe a better option, but it depends hugely on how talented you are. If you're technically brilliant then you'll get further faster without bothering with a degree, otherwise a degree arend grad scheme will get any bright individual into IT...

The exception is if you want to go into management, you'll need a degree to get far there.
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One of my uni courses (12 weeks) covered everything you need for CCNA assuming you learned (one night?) the commands on cisco's OS. I assume any "bright" individual working towards a degree can spend an afternoon to get the CCNA just before leaving uni. What do you think?

Any epmployer can safely assume that a person with a degree (from a good uni) can take the CCNA with 1 week study, therefore why bother with CCNA only people?
 
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drak3 said:
One of my uni courses (12 weeks) covered everything you need for CCNA assuming you learned (one night?) the commands on cisco's OS. I assume any "bright" individual working towards a degree can spend an afternoon to get the CCNA just before leaving uni. What do you think?
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you can stumble through a CCNA, CCIE's are the true measure of your mustard now :)
 
drak3 said:
One of my uni courses (12 weeks) covered everything you need for CCNA assuming you learned (one night?) the commands on cisco's OS. I assume any "bright" individual working towards a degree can spend an afternoon to get the CCNA just before leaving uni. What do you think?

Any epmployer can safely assume that a person with a degree (from a good uni) can take the CCNA with 1 week study, therefore why bother with CCNA only people?
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Well, as pointed out, a monkey could pass a CCNA with a weeks study.

Graduates seem to believe they deserve more money and the fact that every idiot who can pass 3 a levels these days is getting a degree devalues graduates a lot. Even decent uni courses in computing/networking tend to lag behind whats actually happening in the real world...

My point is, if I'm hiring an engineer or a contractor, I don't care whether they have a degree because it doesn't make any difference. Degree and grad scheme is safe and predictable and will get you a decent wage by the time your 30 but it stinks of lack of imagination, I can't see anybody who's passionate or brilliant doing that...
 
Will Gill said:
I cant really reply to that without sounding like a racist in terms of who i choose to employ and the reason for my decisions :p
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Well speaking english well enough to actually explain what they know would be a nice start, but they don't know much, it's all paper CCIEs and they don't have a clue...

...i presume being part of what you were going to say...
 
bigredshark said:
Well, it's the safe way but it'll take you forever more to work your way up at a lot of places and it'll be a long time before you actually get trusted with anything.
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As a former graduate who is working his way up my company, as many have done before me I totally disagree with you.

I guess it must be down to the quality of the company, the quality of the grad scheme and the value that the company expects to get from their grads.

Talented and hardworking individuals will excel whichever route they take...
 
Talented and hardworking individuals will excel whichever route they take...
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Although there are a lot of businesses out there who don't recognise talented people.

I'll echo the fact that graduates are hired and its assumed they know nothing tbh.
 
bigredshark said:
Well, as pointed out, a monkey could pass a CCNA with a weeks study.

Graduates seem to believe they deserve more money and the fact that every idiot who can pass 3 a levels these days is getting a degree devalues graduates a lot. Even decent uni courses in computing/networking tend to lag behind whats actually happening in the real world...

My point is, if I'm hiring an engineer or a contractor, I don't care whether they have a degree because it doesn't make any difference. Degree and grad scheme is safe and predictable and will get you a decent wage by the time your 30 but it stinks of lack of imagination, I can't see anybody who's passionate or brilliant doing that...
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I totally agree with you. People with 4 x A-Levels all science (A) and they struggle with how a for-loop works or why changing an array through multiple aliases affects them all. They end up "buying" their way up towards adegree and end up with a 2:1 or even 1st. I had people asking me to "make their assembly prog to work!" for 100 quid so they could pass the module.

Education = another sort of business in the 21st century I am afraid :(

On your second point about "lack of imagination" I also agree. Starting your own company (or joining a company) and exploiting new ideas is the way towards wealth and satisfaction for sure. The big guys might pay you well after a few promotions, but you are running along a fixed path (born-school-degree-post grad-grad scheme-trainee-junior-senior-pensions-dead :p)
 
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I work in Data Integration, specialise in ETL design/development, mostly in the financial industry. I currently work for a small consultancy firm - which is quite a relief having seen some of the work the bigger firms do (who have v little experience in my particular field) :)
 
I work for EDS on a MoD contract doing generally nothing and getting payed very well for it, we have so many servers and users its gotta be classed as Enterprise!
 
I have to agree - going into a small company and getting yourself stuck into a lot of different projects is great, at the moment Im covering a lot of the following:

Encryption (desktops and laptops with diff configs)
Remote Acess Servers (SSL VPN)
Telephony (Voicemail, New PBX and Fax via email)
VMWare (server and desktop)
Online backups as well as constant live server replication

Not to mention all the day to day stuff with Bloomberg, Reuters, Office, Blackberrys and in house trade-accounting software

I cant see many large companies giving you the opportunity to get all that under your belt after 2-3 years with them.

Some prefer larger companies and good luck to them, but Im really glad I moved into the city to get a decent job its worked out pretty well.

J1nxy said:
A degree gives you more options/flexibility for the future and also gets you onto the grad schemes. If you can't get experience (which the grad schemes are aimed at providing) the MSCE or any other qualification isn't worth squat.
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I found the opposite - My degree is worth squat it seems (Electrical and Electronic Engineering) - didnt really get me anywhere, it was my self taught and other IT skills that have got me where I am , dont get me wrong if it works for you then good on ya but it certainly didnt for me (:

At the end of the day I guess its more about getting interviewed by the right person for you, getting along with them and try not to look or sound a plonker (:
 
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