why all the hate for hs2?

[Raymond Lin]

While we keep debating about HS2, Japan is currently building the next generation of trains which levitates with magnets and can go up to 600kmph, about double the speed of the HS2. Due to the nature of needing a straight track, 250 of the 280km track from the first section is going to be entirely underground/tunnels. When it is finished with the 2nd section that goes from Tokyo to Osaka, the current journey of 3 hours will be about 1 hour.

That journey takes 9hrs on regular trains. Imagine taking a train from Edinburgh to London then Paris in an hour. Honestly, you get in, go to the drinks carriage to get a sandwich and a beer. Sit down and you are in London before you finish your beer.

I believe they are also getting lots of resistance from locals, environmental impacts such as disruption in the river beds from the tunnels, and much higher cost than projected. It went from 13b to about 64billion USD, but i don't think these oppositions will stop it. When Japan developed their original Bullet Train / Shinkansen, back then they faced the same resistance and the world didn't think it will go anywhere as air travel was getting cheap and cars were getting into every household. Nowadays it seems rail is seen as important if not more, especially when they are done right, and everyone loves the Shinkansen, it is seen as something to be proud of.

 

[Greebo]

While we keep debating about HS2, Japan is currently building the next generation of trains which levitates with magnets and can go up to 600kmph, about double the speed of the HS2. Due to the nature of needing a straight track, 250 of the 280km track from the first section is going to be entirely underground/tunnels. When it is finished with the 2nd section that goes from Tokyo to Osaka, the current journey of 3 hours will be about 1 hour.

That journey takes 9hrs on regular trains. Imagine taking a train from Edinburgh to London then Paris in an hour. Honestly, you get in, go to the drinks carriage to get a sandwich and a beer. Sit down and you are in London before you finish your beer.

I believe they are also getting lots of resistance from locals, environmental impacts such as disruption in the river beds from the tunnels, and much higher cost than projected. It went from 13b to about 64billion USD, but i don't think these oppositions will stop it. When Japan developed their original Bullet Train / Shinkansen, back then they faced the same resistance and the world didn't think it will go anywhere as air travel was getting cheap and cars were getting into every household. Nowadays it seems rail is seen as important if not more, especially when they are done right, and everyone loves the Shinkansen, it is seen as something to be proud of.

so what you are ssaying is for the cost of HS2 to birmingham we could have had two of these Japanese magnet trains running underground all the way to Edinburgh?

 

[Raymond Lin]

so what you are ssaying is for the cost of HS2 to birmingham we could have had two of these Japanese magnet trains running underground all the way to Edinburgh?

In a way! Yeah lol, twice as fast, twice the distance. Half the price.

 

[explicit4u]

And incompatible with the existing infrastructure, vastly reducing it's scope.

 

[Raymond Lin]

And incompatible with the existing infrastructure, vastly reducing it's scope.

Which one?

I think they both are brand new infrastructure? Don’t think you can use magnetic trains on their current tracks and they are literally laying everything brand new.

I think the scope is get from A to B as quick as possible. Not A to B to C to D to E to F. Just stops at the major cities in the shortest possible time. The scope is time, not stopping all over the place.

 

[alchal]

And incompatible with the existing infrastructure, vastly reducing it's scope.

Not sure how that fits? How does that differ from HS2? Do other tracks link into the HS2 network as I'm sure it's separate.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Not sure how that fits? How does that differ from HS2? Do other tracks link into the HS2 network as I'm sure it's separate.

Is that like a bus or a plane doesn’t fit into current infrastructure? Lol

You just get off one and step onto the other?

or am I over thinking this?

 

[Tefal]

so what you are ssaying is for the cost of HS2 to birmingham we could have had two of these Japanese magnet trains running underground all the way to Edinburgh?

No not at all as the land prices would be th same


So hs2 + the cost of tunneling + the cost of maglev.



Other country's Don't have the issues we do woth compulsory purchase you get your price and get told to stfu

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

There's a lot of pages here (Yes i am still on the short page format ) whats the summary for the hate of HS2?

On my way to work i pass a sign saying "HS2 = State violence". I don't think they understand what violence means.

While we keep debating about HS2, Japan is currently building the next generation of trains which levitates with magnets and can go up to 600kmph, about double the speed of the HS2. Due to the nature of needing a straight track, 250 of the 280km track from the first section is going to be entirely underground/tunnels. When it is finished with the 2nd section that goes from Tokyo to Osaka, the current journey of 3 hours will be about 1 hour.

That journey takes 9hrs on regular trains. Imagine taking a train from Edinburgh to London then Paris in an hour. Honestly, you get in, go to the drinks carriage to get a sandwich and a beer. Sit down and you are in London before you finish your beer.

I believe they are also getting lots of resistance from locals, environmental impacts such as disruption in the river beds from the tunnels, and much higher cost than projected. It went from 13b to about 64billion USD, but i don't think these oppositions will stop it. When Japan developed their original Bullet Train / Shinkansen, back then they faced the same resistance and the world didn't think it will go anywhere as air travel was getting cheap and cars were getting into every household. Nowadays it seems rail is seen as important if not more, especially when they are done right, and everyone loves the Shinkansen, it is seen as something to be proud of.

I hope they document this and release a documentry about it once completed. I would be fascinated by all the engineering challenges faced in trying to complete this.

I do also think we should be looking at ways to reduce journey times. For me that is progress*couigh*higher speed limits*cough*

And incompatible with the existing infrastructure, vastly reducing it's scope.

We need to make a clean break at some point. You can't hold on to old standards forever or you just slow down progress.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I hope they document this and release a documentry about it once completed. I would be fascinated by all the engineering challenges faced in trying to complete this.

Another reason it is built direct under their mountains partly is due to the speed problem and also away from the coast as that is where the earth quake zones are. So the further away the better. Which brings me to the question on how do they build such a infrastructure underground and with all the safety measures in place for one of the most active earth quake region on the planet.

The first section between Nagoya to Tokyo is due to finish in 2027 and Osaka to Nagoya to finish by 2037.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Another reason it is built direct under their mountains partly is due to the speed problem and also away from the coast as that is where the earth quake zones are. So the further away the better. Which brings me to the question on how do they build such a infrastructure underground and with all the safety measures in place for one of the most active earth quake region on the planet.

The first section between Nagoya to Tokyo is due to finish in 2027 and Osaka to Nagoya to finish by 2037.

I think Japan itself, isn't on a fault line so they don't need to worry about the tunnels becoming misaligned due to plates moving in opposite directions, so it is just derailment when the ground is shaking.

They have a brake system on the bullet trains wereby a central control system detects an earthquake and sends a signal to all trains on the line to activate their emergency brakes. I think it also clamps the trains to the train tracks. It is a very successfull system so they could transfer it to the maglevs.

The first section between Nagoya to Tokyo is due to finish in 2027 and Osaka to Nagoya to finish by 2037.

so that's my holiday destination for 2027 decided

 

[Raymond Lin]

I think Japan itself, isn't on a fault line so they don't need to worry about the tunnels becoming misaligned due to plates moving in opposite directions, so it is just derailment when the ground is shaking.

They have a brake system on the bullet trains wereby a central control system detects an earthquake and sends a signal to all trains on the line to activate their emergency brakes. I think it also clamps the trains to the train tracks. It is a very successfull system so they could transfer it to the maglevs.



so that's my holiday destination for 2027 decided

That make sense.

I've been on the Shinkansen that gets up to the fastest possible speed (the stretch between Tokyo and Sendai), the LCD display under the entrance/exit door at both ends start displaying the current speed at that point and I think it reached over 300kmph. The distance between the 2 is 370km or 230 miles and it takes 90mins, which 30mins of that is slowing right down to about 60mph within the Tokyo Metropolitan area. The bulk of the section in the middle just flies by.

 

[explicit4u]

Not sure how that fits? How does that differ from HS2? Do other tracks link into the HS2 network as I'm sure it's separate.

Nope, the northern section is dependant on other rail projects like NPR (northern powerhouse rail) and some HS2 services will leave the high speed lines at Birmingham and join conventional track, this wouldn't work with maglev.

https://i.imgur.com/vZRTH0h.jpg

I guess (as below) you could argue that if Maglev is the future we might as well start building now and eventually upgrade existing lines and routes as we go, but the cost of this will make HS2s budget look like a drop in the ocean.

We need to make a clean break at some point. You can't hold on to old standards forever or you just slow down progress.

I agree in principle but that doesn't tend to be the way large transport infrastructure works. This would be like if electric cars couldn't drive on normal roads, we already have to fork out more for trains due to our unique railway restrictions (loading gauge - ie. the height and width of the space a train can occupy, like tunnels). While running on rails is considered 'old' tech, the signalling and design is very much modern tech.

Which one?

I think they both are brand new infrastructure? Don’t think you can use magnetic trains on their current tracks and they are literally laying everything brand new.

I think the scope is get from A to B as quick as possible. Not A to B to C to D to E to F. Just stops at the major cities in the shortest possible time. The scope is time, not stopping all over the place.

Maglev.

If HS2 was maglev then you wouldn't be able to get from A-B as quick as possible unless you're luckily enough to live by a maglev station, chances are you'd have to change from maglev to conventional rail to complete your journey, thus A-B-C etc.

 

[Delvis]

That make sense.

I've been on the Shinkansen that gets up to the fastest possible speed (the stretch between Tokyo and Sendai), the LCD display under the entrance/exit door at both ends start displaying the current speed at that point and I think it reached over 300kmph. The distance between the 2 is 370km or 230 miles and it takes 90mins, which 30mins of that is slowing right down to about 60mph within the Tokyo Metropolitan area. The bulk of the section in the middle just flies by.

The Maglev in China (2013) got to over 413kmph when I visited, the thing hardly felt like it was moving o

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I agree in principle but that doesn't tend to be the way large transport infrastructure works. This would be like if electric cars couldn't drive on normal roads, we already have to fork out more for trains due to our unique railway restrictions (loading gauge - ie. the height and width of the space a train can occupy, like tunnels). While running on rails is considered 'old' tech, the signalling and design is very much modern tech.

.

I understand what you are trying to say with your example but i don't think it is appropriate.

Train tracks are fundemental to enabling trains to move, while a road is not for a car. You can drive cars on dirt if you want. However with your example, electric cars need charging infastructure and a redesign of parking spaces if we wish to move to an all electric future.

I can see where you are coming from in terms of a fragmentation of requirements as they fiddle around with train specification to line up to existing tunnel and bridge clearances.

 

[Tefal]

I understand what you are trying to say with your example but i don't think it is appropriate.

Train tracks are fundemental to enabling trains to move, while a road is not for a car. You can drive cars on dirt if you want. However with your example, electric cars need charging infastructure and a redesign of parking spaces if we wish to move to an all electric future.

I can see where you are coming from in terms of a fragmentation of requirements as they fiddle around with train specification to line up to existing tunnel and bridge clearances.

You can drive A car on dirt.

You can't drive the millions that go down roads over dirt.


Not if you want that dirt to be drivable for long

 

[Raymond Lin]

Maglev.

If HS2 was maglev then you wouldn't be able to get from A-B as quick as possible unless you're luckily enough to live by a maglev station, chances are you'd have to change from maglev to conventional rail to complete your journey, thus A-B-C etc.

Maglev or HS2, you still need to get to the station.

Same thing applies to Heathrow if you want to fly to certain destinations or get on a cruise or get on the Euro tunnel.

Can hardly park a train on my drive way can I? The solution is you walk or other transport until you get onto plane/Eurostar/ferry/HS2/Maglev or whatever, that hasn't changed and it's not a new problem or a problem at all.

The point is you cut the bulk of the journey time by half.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The Maglev in China (2013) got to over 413kmph when I visited, the thing hardly felt like it was moving o

I have a video looking out the window when going at max speed or near max speed, it's very quiet, apart from my hands touching the mic!

 

[Malevolence]

 

[mid_gen]

The reason people dump on HS2 is that it's a fantastically expensive way of doing exactly what we can already do, which is take a high speed train from Birmingham to London or vice versa.

If it was perhaps, Exeter <-> Bristol <-> Birmingham <-> Sheffield <-> Newcastle , or some other new route that wasn't well served (i.e. NOT a London route), and had the potential to open up new commuter routes and investment in less well-served areas, I'd be able to get behind it.