why all the hate for hs2?

HS2 is a waste of money to save a little time; they should have built a haulage railway and got all that crap off the roads, making the roads much safer and massively reducing road surface damage.

Ultimately to achieve net zero we need to move more then just haulage off the roads, people need to drive a lot less then they do today.


I had to do a lot of work journeys recently and I much preferred the trips where I could get the train, but I wasn't picking up the fare bill. I'd love to see the government do a nationwide experiment for a significant amount of time where public transport is free at the point of use. It would be very interesting to see how peoples habits change and the service adapt to meet demand. Travel time is part of it, but so is frequency* of service and cost.



*Service needs to be so frequent that a timetable is mostly irrelevant.
 
It has been done in other countries and didn't lead to the results you'd expect. Not sure how much better it might fair in the UK with the press getting in a frenzy over it. Plus between rail strikes, franchises limiting the sale of tickets, hot weather stopping trains, snow stopping trains, the lack of a single bicycle policy etc.. it would still be a difficult sell for some.
 
What do we think the final figure will be? I think the worst of the spiralling costs is over but it will still climb, so maybe ~£140bn, which would be >£100bn over the original budget. Think what you could do with that..............
 
It has been done in other countries and didn't lead to the results you'd expect. Not sure how much better it might fair in the UK with the press getting in a frenzy over it. Plus between rail strikes, franchises limiting the sale of tickets, hot weather stopping trains, snow stopping trains, the lack of a single bicycle policy etc.. it would still be a difficult sell for some.

Don't forget "leaves on the track" ;)
 
You're spot on @Werewolf problem is that successive governments change the goal posts and we don't have continuity in the infrastructure sector that we need.

At times like this the way other countries work sometimes seems incredibly efficient - I used to visit Oman most years with work and what was a motorway roundabout one year suddenly had a very large flyover going over it a year later. When Sultan says he wants something done, it gets done!

Granted, immigrant slave labour being very poorly paid is a bit of an issue, but we'll skip over that for now...
 
I'm biased as I work in the civils and infrastructure sector so I see it as a positive. However interface with a lot of international businesses and governments who all seem to feel infra is a critical element for growth. Maybe it's mass delusion or they're onto something!
 
I'm biased as I work in the civils and infrastructure sector so I see it as a positive. However interface with a lot of international businesses and governments who all seem to feel infra is a critical element for growth. Maybe it's mass delusion or they're onto something!

Agreed - you need projects like this for development. The whole problem is that the rail routes are the same ones originally laid down in the mid 1800's and just aren't suitable for really high speed trains. Other countries have been building new lines for decades now but we just haven't bothered until now.

I do wonder how many of those opposed to it know what HS1 is though...
 
Its now labelled as the world's most expensive railway line, and that's in a relatively small country as England.

How much cost auditing is been done for it?
The fact we're a relatively small country is probably a large part of the reason for the cost, another is that we don't just decide we're going to build something and then throw people off the land.

Any major project in the UK that requires a continuous stretch of land is likely to cost more per mile here than in say America or China simply because large parts of that land will already be in use and will have to be paid for at something like market value, parts of HS2 probably cost in the tens of millions per mile just for the land simply because they had to buy out property owners to build on that stretch (at 100-500k per house that adds up), as the alternative would potentially not have been suitable.
In China the government doesn't bother asking, or paying (and the land isn't so valuable), in the US they've still got vast tracts that make many such attempts relatively cheap because you're building over "wild" or low economic value land.
In Europe they rebuilt much of their rail network after WW2 to what was then the current standard (with a view to the future) so in many cases built on land that was relatively cheap/out of use due to the war, whilst our rail network is still largely built on the routes from the very early days of rail and much of the additional land that was there for railway use was then sold off.

Also is that most expensive overall, per mile, or in a developed country building over already in use land?

IIRC our motorway costs per mile are also some of the highest in the world for much the same reason, and if you look around as you drive even on A roads, you'll often notice they're often not a very direct route because in many instances they were built on what were already roads that were in turn originally placed to go around various plots of farm land etc, and it's been cheaper to pay for more miles of relatively winding road than to buy up the land to make a straight run (something that isn't an option with rail).
 
The fact we're a relatively small country is probably a large part of the reason for the cost, another is that we don't just decide we're going to build something and then throw people off the land.

Any major project in the UK that requires a continuous stretch of land is likely to cost more per mile here than in say America or China simply because large parts of that land will already be in use and will have to be paid for at something like market value, parts of HS2 probably cost in the tens of millions per mile simply because they had to buy out property owners to build on that stretch (at 100-500k per house that adds up), as the alternative would potentially not have been suitable.
In China the government doesn't bother asking, or paying (and the land isn't so valuable), in the US they've still got vast tracts that make many such attempts relatively cheap because you're building over "wild" or low economic value land.
In Europe they rebuilt much of their rail network after WW2 to what was then the current standard (with a view to the future) so in many cases built on land that was relatively cheap/out of use due to the war, whilst our rail network is still largely built on the routes from the very early days of rail and much of the additional land that was there for railway use was then sold off.

Also is that most expensive overall, per mile, or in a developed country building over already in use land?
I think the lack of expertise also makes it more expensive. China has built a huge amount of high speed railway over the past decade (I think they basically layed track down across the entire country). They have probably refined the process significantly since the first stretch they layed down, which would help to drive cost down as well as build time.

It's one of the reasons I hope they decided to just lay down high speed track all across the country, rather than stop and come back in about 10-20 years to do another small chunk. Build up on what they learnt from HS2, if we get good enough maybe we could export that skill.
 
I'm biased as I work in the civils and infrastructure sector so I see it as a positive. However interface with a lot of international businesses and governments who all seem to feel infra is a critical element for growth. Maybe it's mass delusion or they're onto something!
Infrastructure is almost always a good long term investment, and IIRC rail can be much cheaper and more reliable than road if you can get close enough to either both ends of the route or a suitable hand off point.

I'm not sure if it's because of where I grew up, but it's something I've been at least vaguely aware of since I was a very young child riding the heritage railway (narrow gauge) that was built around WW1 and only retired in the 60's as a way to cheaply, quickly, and reliably move sand and IIRC clay to various facilities, even today the town is surrounded by active sand quarries but these days they're using heavy trucks that can cause a lot of issues for traffic and the road network to shift the sand (damage to the road, and a lot of sand that ends up on the road as they leave the quarries which can be fun). IIRC the council finally put in things like width restrictions on several of the routes, requiring the likes of busses to change their routing, because the quarry trucks tended to take the "shortest" route, which meant through the town centre and past lots of residential properties (not to mention something like 4 schools and 3 preschools).
 
I think the lack of expertise also makes it more expensive. China has built a huge amount of high speed railway over the past decade (I think they basically layed track down across the entire country). They have probably refined the process significantly since the first stretch they layed down, which would help to drive cost down as well as build time.

It's one of the reasons I hope they decided to just lay down high speed track all across the country, rather than stop and come back in about 10-20 years to do another small chunk. Build up on what they learnt from HS2, if we get good enough maybe we could export that skill.
It's more that China is a huge country and with very low labour and land costs (I would also suspect that China wouldn't admit to cost overruns).

We've got most of the expertise we need to do railways, a very high percentage of the cost and time is simply the planning and approval processes, in China if the government says "we want to run 200km of track in a line from A to B"" they can do it without most of the delays we have, and paying a fraction of what we pay to any private land owners. China was forcing entire villages to relocate for some of it's projects and often people were not too unhappy as they may have been getting moved from very basic, very old housing to something that was much more modern/easier to live in just a few km from their old houses.

Yes spending years building does help with the experience, but the same would happen here, but we would still have the same issue we have now, in that any route you wish to run track through is almost certainly going to require moving a lot of people out of their properties, so you end up spending years trying to find the route that will work technically, and with the least number of displaced people, then spend years more fighting through planning permissions and appeals to get approval to do it, all of which means that even before you've moved the first bit of soil for construction you've potentially spent a good fraction of what it costs in some countries for an entire project, just in paperwork.
And whilst we're dealing with paperwork and appeals the original cost based on predictions of pricing of materials is now getting more and more out of date, and simple things like inflation are now eating into what was the contingency fund. IIRC one of the reasons for the HS2 cost overruns is that the price of steel went up far more than anyone predicted early on (it also affected pretty much every construction project planned in advance, but obviously HS2 uses a lot of steel).

It's one of the things that makes comparing costs of infrastructure across countries so hard, as in some countries the land cost is next to nothing (already owned by either the organisation doing the work, or by the government), in others you might be looking at 10's of millions pounds per km of track just for the land and compensation for lost property values.
 
China did suggest they could do HS2 for us - but like their domestic & Oman example they wouldn't have been allowed to do it to their H&S standards (saving $$$)
- what was the toll for upcoming world cup.
 
China did suggest they could do HS2 for us - but like their domestic & Oman example they wouldn't have been allowed to do it to their H&S standards (saving $$$)
- what was the toll for upcoming world cup.
Yeah but it would riddled with backdoors and send data back to china. Oh wait that's called tiktok :D

 
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