why all the hate for hs2?

SpellowHouse said:
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No one is talking about out of date. Just we didn't have to beat the rest of Europe here. It would have been fine had we matched the rest of Europe.
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Having the ability to run trains at that higher top speed gives flexibility for service patterns, and makes the line more useful. I'm not sure the design is significantly different from other projects either - eg apparently the minimum turn radius used on the highest design speed sections is the same as France is using for their newer LGV routes, 7.2km.

Sure if the design speed on some sections was lower then you could wiggle the route around more to avoid the odd tree, but I don't think it's been shown that that would actually save a significant amount of money or reduce local opposition. The route is already pretty good at avoiding settlements and environmental impacts - NIMBYs would protest it however wiggly you made the route.
 
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GreatAuk said:
Having the ability to run trains at that higher top speed gives flexibility for service patterns, and makes the line more useful. I'm not sure the design is significantly different from other projects either - eg apparently the minimum turn radius used on the highest design speed sections is the same as France is using for their newer LGV routes, 7.2km.

Sure if the design speed on some sections was lower then you could wiggle the route around more to avoid the odd tree, but I don't think it's been shown that that would actually save a significant amount of money or reduce local opposition. The route is already pretty good at avoiding settlements and environmental impacts - NIMBYs would protest it however wiggly you made the route.
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It made a huge difference.
 
Trains in this country are too expensive and not likely to get cheaper, if anything with large projects they price will only go up.

There was a story on LBC the other morning where a couple purchased a car and needed to collect it, it was cheaper for them to fly via Spain and catch some sun than get a direct train ticket.
 
loftie said:
What do you mean by it's seized up? Too many people trying to use it? Issues with trains/tracks causing delays?
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This week it has been;
  • Points failure
  • Shortage of train crew
  • Signalling fault
  • Trespasser on the track
  • A broken rail
Variously, all of which meant either delays and/or cancelled trains for long periods of time.
 
Scam said:
This week it has been;
  • Points failure
  • Shortage of train crew
  • Signalling fault
  • Trespasser on the track
  • A broken rail
Variously, all of which meant either delays and/or cancelled trains for long periods of time.
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Ooof, that's a lot of **** for one week. TBF though, they're all things that can, hopefully, be sorted out in the future to be less frequent. Does it normally have that many issues?
 
loftie said:
Ooof, that's a lot of **** for one week. TBF though, they're all things that can, hopefully, be sorted out in the future to be less frequent. Does it normally have that many issues?
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Obviously some weeks are worse than others. But I thought it was common knowledge how poorly the EL is performing? https://www.timeout.com/london/news...train-line-in-the-uk-for-cancellations-091123

Most of the problems are WoP, so as I said above adding HS2 works into the mix and work at OOC is just going to be horrendous. Then when it is actually done my 18min commute will also be longer because of an additional stop that nobody wanted anyway :p
 
Scam said:
Obviously some weeks are worse than others. But I thought it was common knowledge how poorly the EL is performing? https://www.timeout.com/london/news...train-line-in-the-uk-for-cancellations-091123

Most of the problems are WoP, so as I said above adding HS2 works into the mix and work at OOC is just going to be horrendous. Then when it is actually done my 18min commute will also be longer because of an additional stop that nobody wanted anyway :p
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I knew it had reliability issues a while back, but didn't know they were still continuing tbh. The only thing I vaguely remember reading about it recently (IIRC) was that the company running it was changing.
 
In addition to 3rd runway - whether the trains run on time/more economically, with Kier's new public 'ownership' will be a measure come the next election
(and a good piece of headline if they don't) what's your progess Kier.
 
Scam said:
This week it has been;
  • Points failure
  • Shortage of train crew
  • Signalling fault
  • Trespasser on the track
  • A broken rail
Variously, all of which meant either delays and/or cancelled trains for long periods of time.
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There’s a lot to go wrong, though I find with trains it’s all or nothing. Yesterday was tree on the track, hours of cancellations. Eventually gave up, walked to another station which runs to neighbouring town. Got on, but within minutes we’re stuck behind a train with stuck breaks, blocking the line. 30 minutes later we finally carried on. Was a total shambles really.

- Who is to blame for lack of tree care? National Rail I guess.

- Train company to blame for poorly maintained stock.

So I got in 1930 instead of 1815, ate some food and basically went to bed.

Generally though, it’s not the train but the network, aka the expensive part.
 
I’m
SupraWez said:
Trains in this country are too expensive and not likely to get cheaper, if anything with large projects they price will only go up.

There was a story on LBC the other morning where a couple purchased a car and needed to collect it, it was cheaper for them to fly via Spain and catch some sun than get a direct train ticket.
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At least back in the days of BR, the prices were fixed for a given period of time, ISTR they would change every 6 months or so.

I’ve heard some pretty extreme examples of TOCs operating like airlines, e.g. somebody needing a return ticket to London on the day and being quoted a 4 figure price.

Presumably demand was particularly high that day and you’d have been standing much of the way.

I don’t know how they can sell you a ticket when there’s no available seating (well, I do - it’s blatant profiteering)

Not sure about the rest of Europe but I’ve travelled on RENFE a few times and if there are no seats on an express route, the train is full & you can’t get a ticket. I’d assume the TGV is the same.

They should enforce that here too.
 
That Jekka Gal said:
I don’t know how they can sell you a ticket when there’s no available seating (well, I do - it’s blatant profiteering)

Not sure about the rest of Europe but I’ve travelled on RENFE a few times and if there are no seats on an express route, the train is full & you can’t get a ticket. I’d assume the TGV is the same.

They should enforce that here too.
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Its because historically the UK rail network has operated on the basis of right to travel, not right to a seat like many European networks (and particularly high speed networks) operate; its designed so that if you need to be somewhere and your willing to risk not getting a seat (or stand) then you can still get there.

You wouldn't have the option on Eurostar or many of the European trains. Frankly I don't see an issue - if you want to guarantee a seat then book a train with a seat reservation (if available); but why leave people (and revenue) standing on a platform just because there aren't seats; it would be a killer to rush hour services in many places.
 
chrismscotland said:
Its because historically the UK rail network has operated on the basis of right to travel, not right to a seat like many European networks (and particularly high speed networks) operate; its designed so that if you need to be somewhere and your willing to risk not getting a seat (or stand) then you can still get there.

You wouldn't have the option on Eurostar or many of the European trains. Frankly I don't see an issue - if you want to guarantee a seat then book a train with a seat reservation (if available); but why leave people (and revenue) standing on a platform just because there aren't seats; it would be a killer to rush hour services in many places.
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The problem with your plan is invariably you find some oik who hasn't booked a seat sitting in yours.
 
Dis86 said:
The problem with your plan is invariably you find some oik who hasn't booked a seat sitting in yours.
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I get that; frankly rail staff should be given more power to tell folk to bloody move; rail companies have their own power to prosecute fare dodgers, etc - they should have the same power to tell someone to move (and in my experience generally they do)
 
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chrismscotland said:
Its because historically the UK rail network has operated on the basis of right to travel, not right to a seat like many European networks (and particularly high speed networks) operate; its designed so that if you need to be somewhere and your willing to risk not getting a seat (or stand) then you can still get there.

You wouldn't have the option on Eurostar or many of the European trains. Frankly I don't see an issue - if you want to guarantee a seat then book a train with a seat reservation (if available); but why leave people (and revenue) standing on a platform just because there aren't seats; it would be a killer to rush hour services in many places.
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Fair enough- perhaps some more rolling stock on peak services wouldn’t go amiss.
 
That Jekka Gal said:
Fair enough- perhaps some more rolling stock on peak services wouldn’t go amiss.
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No capacity for the most part.

There are huge known bottlenecks on the railway and it’s partly what HS2 is meant to be addressing for that mainline.

Even in some of the branch lines, they can’t increase the frequency of trains if they wanted because of the capacity through various junctions.

In my area the two classic examples are Ely and Haughley junctions. They are on the news constantly, plans have been around for two decades, no money to build them despite them being an absolute necessity to improve services.

Haughley acts as a massive bottleneck for rail freight out of Felixstowe, you know the largest port on the U.K., it’s a total joke when you think about it for more than 15 seconds.

When you get down to say London, there is a train coming though every 3-4 minutes. Basically as soon as one train has cleared that section, another is coming in. There is no way to add more without bulldozing whatever is either side of the tracks to add more tracks.
 
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SpellowHouse said:
Once again, it was the government making fundamentally wrong decisions. It always has been our governments problem. What they need to do is say "we have X billion and we want a railway for that, what can you give us?" instead they get too involved in taking a direction. Like aircraft carriers that can only use one aircraft. Like scrapping all our planes because we think missiles are the future. Like ..... well, so many other bad decisions.
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It kind of sums up the UK governments approach to everything infrastructure/construction wise in that they found out they could only afford one good aircraft carrier, so decided to build two average ones because two sounds more impressive :P
 
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