Why are tradesmen so expensive

[robj20]

Half a day on the internet..... No, I don't presume much at all, from the sounds of it.


I 'taught' myself dovetailing in 3½ minutes from the internet... But I guarantee you that neither I nor anyone else will be anything like as good at it from those 3½ minutes as the guy in the video who's been doing it for decades.

What you mean is you learned about how it works... but even then, knowing how and having the skill to do it well enough are vastly different. Many things take more practice, skill and experience rather than simple knowledge, and without them in sufficient measures you will **** it up to hell and back.... perhaps even injure yourself in the process. That's just the way 'trade' stuff goes.

And even if it weren't, people are good at different things and some just don't have the head for it... Plenty of über smart folk here at work with degrees, diplomas, doctorates and all manner of fancy engineering qualifications, who can't even keep their shoelaces tied, much less sew up a hole in their shirt... and you can forget ironing said shirt!


Because if a joint bursts while you're out and you come home to a day's worth of flooding, you have them and their insurance to claim off.
Because it's about more than just whacking an olive and compression fitting on a bit of pipe.
Because it means getting down on the dirty floor, behind the kitchen cabinets.
Because they don't want to do it themselves and can afford to pay someone else.

I've known someone drive over 45 miles and pay £20 just to have a trusted mechanic change his windcreen wiper blades. He's not thick or stupid in any way and I even found him a 2-minute video on how to do it. He could have gone down Halfords, bought the blades and fitten them himself in less time that it took to drive over.... It's just not what he wanted.

Your presuming again, not everyone can't take to things that's fair enough but there are a few that have the mindset to be good at a lot of things with a little practice.
I've always been like that quick read of something do it a few times and that's it.
Don't think everyone just watches a short clip and then do a bodge job. I devote hours upon hours of practice and reading up, talking to people in the trades that I do trust, I just like to do things myself.
Some people think changing a plug is a job for the electrician, others think it's easy.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Your presuming again, not everyone can't take to things that's fair enough but there are a few that have the mindset to be good at a lot of things with a little practice.

Do you actually mean a little practice, as in half a day on the internet and that's it you're a master craftsman, just as capable as the people others would hire, who've been doing the job 30 years...? If so, then I bow to your awesomeness and utter superiority.

If, however, you mean hours and hours of practice, after which you get good enough that you can do a job you are happy with, even if it's not to a 'professional' standard, that's different... and again, knowing something and being able to do it, especially to the higher standards, are vastly different, much of it coming only from lots of experience.

I've always been like that quick read of something do it a few times and that's it.

So again, I maintain the low standards remark, as if you were that good at everything you touched, you'd probably be doing that for a living...!

 

[robj20]

Do you actually mean a little practice, as in half a day on the internet and that's it you're a master craftsman, just as capable as the people others would hire, who've been doing the job 30 years...? If so, then I bow to your awesomeness and utter superiority.

If, however, you mean hours and hours of practice, after which you get good enough that you can do a job you are happy with, even if it's not to a 'professional' standard, that's different... and again, knowing something and being able to do it, especially to the higher standards, are vastly different, much of it coming only from lots of experience.


So again, I maintain the low standards remark, as if you were that good at everything you touched, you'd probably be doing that for a living...!

Depends on the task. Plastering I admit is something you just keep getting better at. How good do you need a wall or ceiling to be, I can get a ceiling perfectly flat suitable for direct painting, where my lack of practice shows is speed I would say a ceiling takes me a day until I'm happy. But plumbing is just knowledge and logic. Same with electrics.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Depends on the task. Plastering I admit is something you just keep getting better at.

But like many things, it's not something you're born awesome at. If that's how things were, I'd be a blacksmith already!

But plumbing is just knowledge and logic. Same with electrics.

No disrespect, but I've heard words to that effect SOOOOO many times.... and yet so few people can tell when a joint isn't secured, or a line isn't straight, or a gap isn't fully filled, or any of the other little things that lead to their embarrassing downfall, because that's the experience part.
The one where it shows most is probably woodworking, something I'm playing around with my own self right now.

It's also when things aren't the run-of-the mill ideal solutions that you see in the B&Q Guide To [Blah] - Most people could cope with plumbing a copper pipe to a dead-true, flat, exposed wall... but when the wall is an old convex cottage thing from the 1860s, with fixed cupboards to work through (not around, but through) and the drill just cannot get the angle to fix the bracket squarely - That's what the practice and experience is for.

 

[TallPaul1878]

I'm an electrician, I'm around skilled tradesmen all day every day.

Sure I can turn my hand to a spot of joinery. I can put skirting on, hang a door, build a stud wall. But I wouldn't dream of trying to put a roof together.

What we have here is people using the lowest common denominator. Anyone can spur off a socket, even split a ring to extend a kitchen if they really have a go at it.

But tell me what you're going to do when you swap your old fashioned consumer unit for a modern one with MCBs and RCDs and you can't get anything to switch on, it's all tripping out, it's driving you nuts.

Can you put together an S plan heating system and retro fit a solar powered water heater to it whilst your at it? When that heating system goes down can you diagnose and repair the fault?

Don't think so!

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Depends on the task. Plastering I admit is something you just keep getting better at. How good do you need a wall or ceiling to be, I can get a ceiling perfectly flat suitable for direct painting, where my lack of practice shows is speed I would say a ceiling takes me a day until I'm happy. But plumbing is just knowledge and logic. Same with electrics.

This TBH.

I am the same, I can turn my hand to most things, if you have good hand eye coordination and good motor control then the thing you are physically trying to perform should happen fairly well.
I have done a load of electrics, I normally read up, understand, then bounce it off the electrical manager at work. If he says yep then I know I am good to go.

I fitted decking last year, we then had a man with a van round to collect a sofa and he saw the decking through the window, said thats a really nice job bet it was expensive who did it. When i said I did he was shocked, it turns out he was a landscaper and the man with a van bit was he sideline for when he hadn't got jobs.

If I had a spark round, or a plumber it would be for something technical so I know I would be putting their skills to good use. The problem is worse for people who have low skills or ability in the first place, they are paying for a capable person to do a low skilled job.

 

[tom_e]

I'm an electrician, I'm around skilled tradesmen all day every day.

Sure I can turn my hand to a spot of joinery. I can put skirting on, hang a door, build a stud wall. But I wouldn't dream of trying to put a roof together.

What we have here is people using the lowest common denominator. Anyone can spur off a socket, even split a ring to extend a kitchen if they really have a go at it.

But tell me what you're going to do when you swap your old fashioned consumer unit for a modern one with MCBs and RCDs and you can't get anything to switch on, it's all tripping out, it's driving you nuts.

Can you put together an S plan heating system and retro fit a solar powered water heater to it whilst your at it? When that heating system goes down can you diagnose and repair the fault?

Don't think so!

To be fair it's the same for everything.

I get paid what I do because I can solve the issues beyond just following a simple error message which points out exactly what needs fixing.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I'm an electrician, I'm around skilled tradesmen all day every day.

Sure I can turn my hand to a spot of joinery. I can put skirting on, hang a door, build a stud wall. But I wouldn't dream of trying to put a roof together.

What we have here is people using the lowest common denominator. Anyone can spur off a socket, even split a ring to extend a kitchen if they really have a go at it.

But tell me what you're going to do when you swap your old fashioned consumer unit for a modern one with MCBs and RCDs and you can't get anything to switch on, it's all tripping out, it's driving you nuts.

Can you put together an S plan heating system and retro fit a solar powered water heater to it whilst your at it? When that heating system goes down can you diagnose and repair the fault?

Don't think so!

Funny, my unclu just completed a self build extension, he did the lot himself. (went on a bricklaying course, a plastering course and an electrics course).
He said one of the easiest things to do was install the roof. It was pretty much all done by other people, drawn up and specced, so he passed these details to the manufacturer who delivered pre formed roof beams. He then had to make some minor keying in points, and nail them in place with cross beams etc. Would be different in a custom made oak framed extension I grant but for most people that isn't going to be what they are using.
Hes an engineer by trade though now retired so no real hands on of building trade but used to understanding something and performing a followup action.

 

[GarethSouthgate]

Presume much.
I've taught myself plastering, plumbing and electrics. I knew 99% of electrics due to my job the rest is just specific regulations. Its not like plastering is difficult just takes practice. I'm now easily capable of plastering a full room including ceiling without any issues, im virtually re-plastering my full house costing about £50 in materials per room.
Plumbing i found just ridiculously easy not sure why anyone pays for a trader for it, electrics maybe a little more that can go wrong but mostly easy. Plastering i would say is down to practice, how different substrates respond and so on, plus the hand work with the tools takes a bit of time.
I think people with the right mindset will pick it up.

How long did it take you to learn to plaster? Can you get it so it's 100% spot on? Skimming etc. Every one tells me it's a dark art, even those who will do 90% of stuff themselves.

 

[Duke]

I think people forget all the other costs involved in being a sole trader / small business owner as listed near the start of the thread.

 

[mattyy]

Funny, my unclu just completed a self build extension, he did the lot himself. (went on a bricklaying course, a plastering course and an electrics course).
He said one of the easiest things to do was install the roof. It was pretty much all done by other people, drawn up and specced, so he passed these details to the manufacturer who delivered pre formed roof beams. He then had to make some minor keying in points, and nail them in place with cross beams etc. Would be different in a custom made oak framed extension I grant but for most people that isn't going to be what they are using.
Hes an engineer by trade though now retired so no real hands on of building trade but used to understanding something and performing a followup action.

So he didn't do the roof himself then? Various other skilled tradesmen did the skilled part of the job for him!
This argument going on here can be related to so much and not just tradesmen, that it simply isn't worth having. I once had a debate with a nurse about who she considered smarter - the consultant using an MRI scanner or the engineer fixing the MRI scanner.
She chose the operator. Yet the engineer would be qualified and trained to dismantle and re-rebuild that machine, he would be required to know how to operate and what imagery to expect for fault finding and what adjustments he could make would affect the output. It would have been an engineer that would have written the training manual/taught the operator.
At the end of the day, we live in an age where information is so readily available that anything can be 'learned' within half a day on the Internet. Heck, I can read about how to fly a plane, spend an hour on a flight sim and also an hours lesson in a plane and be able to 'fly' but if I come across that tricky cross wind on my second flight that I haven't 'learned' yet then I'm gone!
I could learn how to speak a few words of Italian in half a day, put me into an Italian debate...

Point is, sure things can be learnt in half a day but it's only that particular thing that you need to do at that moment you are learning, whether you do it well or not is debatable, but let's say you have an issue when you're running your ring main you've just learnt about and the ceiling joists are in the way... Would you know the equations you should be doing when you drill random holes to not weaken those beams?? See, that will require some more 'learning'. A tradesman doesn't have that time to learn about new problems he/she comes up against. They have solutions because they have already learnt what they can do, should do and are allowed to do - and its this that makes them skilled.

Also, the thing with adding markup onto parts... It's the most basic business principle - sell for more than what you paid. I guess tradesmen are smarter than you all think

 

[robj20]

How long did it take you to learn to plaster? Can you get it so it's 100% spot on? Skimming etc. Every one tells me it's a dark art, even those who will do 90% of stuff themselves.

Few weeks, started by doing Hardwall then when I had done the whole room, for info skimming, then tackled the ceiling. The second room I boarded the ceiling and then skimmed.

 

[robj20]

I'm an electrician, I'm around skilled tradesmen all day every day.

Sure I can turn my hand to a spot of joinery. I can put skirting on, hang a door, build a stud wall. But I wouldn't dream of trying to put a roof together.

What we have here is people using the lowest common denominator. Anyone can spur off a socket, even split a ring to extend a kitchen if they really have a go at it.

But tell me what you're going to do when you swap your old fashioned consumer unit for a modern one with MCBs and RCDs and you can't get anything to switch on, it's all tripping out, it's driving you nuts.

Can you put together an S plan heating system and retro fit a solar powered water heater to it whilst your at it? When that heating system goes down can you diagnose and repair the fault?

Don't think so!

I would borrow the megger from work and do an insulation test, which is part of the testing procedure anyway. I wouldn't wire it up wrong in the first place. I don't have the luxury of getting anything wrong at work with wiring why would I at home.

 

[pallys]

Some traders do charge too much for basic tasks.

E.g I had a gas safe/plumber round to service boiler and while he was here I told him toilet was dripping into the pan.
Said he wanted £75 but didn't have time there and then.

I spent an hour on youtube, got the fluidmaster valve from Screwfix for a tenner and changed it myself.

I had never done anything like this before so I was well chuffed.

Now if he had charged less I would have told him to do it.

I'm more than happy to pay the going rate for complex jobs though.

 

[pallys]

Another recent classic was bathroom tap leaking - plumber said I needed new tap.

I went down the to the place I bought it from and he told me how to change the cartridge...

Didn't need a new tap at all, only a plastic cartridge that was £7 and an allen key!

I don't trust many traders at all now and I try and do stuff myself where possible and enjoy the challenge.
Youtube DIY's have been so helpful - traders must hate it.

 

[Telecaster]

Some traders do charge too much for basic tasks.

E.g I had a gas safe/plumber round to service boiler and while he was here I told him toilet was dripping into the pan.
Said he wanted £75 but didn't have time there and then.

I spent an hour on youtube, got the fluidmaster valve from Screwfix for a tenner and changed it myself.

I had never done anything like this before so I was well chuffed.

Now if he had charged less I would have told him to do it.

I'm more than happy to pay the going rate for complex jobs though.

That just sounds like a typical case of quoting for a job you don't need/want to do.

Rather than just saying to the customer - "I won't do that as I'm not crawling around your manky toilet for a tenner job"- as it seems a tad unprofessional, it's best just to put in an exaggerated quote so the customer comes to that decision themselves. It's win/win, they either don't bother asking you to do it in which case you aren't crawling around doing bit/bob jobs for a few quid when you could be doing something more rewarding, or they will give you the go ahead in which case it's a little bonus.

We do it all the time, the boss won't want to send someone 2 hours away for a poxy little job so will put in a big quote in the hope they'll not bother, but he's more than happy to send someone if they agree to it as it's easy money.

 

[Amp34]

Aye, and they only do IT for a living but can build an extension no bother if they watch a youtube video, sigh

What about those tradesmen that think they can build a decent home network etc, no bother if they watch youtube?

Just because people do it for a job doesn't mean the basics take years to master and are impossible to do if you haven't done it.

Yes, being a real artisan can take time and skill to master, but most building work isn't that, and what is lacked in experience can be made up with time. Someone doing it themselves can spend longer on a job to get to the same standard as the person doing it as a job, because they aren't getting paid by the hour/job.

 

[TallPaul1878]

I would borrow the megger from work and do an insulation test, which is part of the testing procedure anyway. I wouldn't wire it up wrong in the first place. I don't have the luxury of getting anything wrong at work with wiring why would I at home.

Well aren't you the special one.

Good for you.

 

[Amp34]

Do you actually mean a little practice, as in half a day on the internet and that's it you're a master craftsman, just as capable as the people others would hire, who've been doing the job 30 years...? If so, then I bow to your awesomeness and utter superiority.

If, however, you mean hours and hours of practice, after which you get good enough that you can do a job you are happy with, even if it's not to a 'professional' standard, that's different... and again, knowing something and being able to do it, especially to the higher standards, are vastly different, much of it coming only from lots of experience.


So again, I maintain the low standards remark, as if you were that good at everything you touched, you'd probably be doing that for a living...!

What do you define as a "professional" standard?

I've been looking at a fair number of (eq) £600k - £800k new build houses recently and a lot of them have a a fair amount of work in them that is frankly shocking. All done by "professionals" to presumably a "professional" standard. Conversely you'll find there are a lot of amateurs that could do a significantly better job than mentioned above, so your low standards remark needs to come with a lot of caveats.

Yes, many of those "professionals" may well be able to do a better job if they were given the time/money, but that goes back to the point in my previous post.

Like many things, being able to do something to a good standard and doing it as a job are not mutually exclusive. That doesn't take away from the job you* do, or the requirement for your* job. As you mentioned in your previous post there's lots of reasons people will hire a tradesman, people have different skill levels and others just don't want to "waste" their time on things. That extends to IT, banking and a multitude of other industries/trades as well as building trades.

Just claiming that if you don't do something professionally means you're going to do something to a low standard is generally wrong tbh.

*as in the royal you - everyone

Edit: and another comment on the professional vs "diy'r". Our garage was built by a professional about 5 years ago. I spent much of last weekend removing part of plywood sheathing and replacing it because they failed to finish the edges properly, leading to a lot of rot in the roof... Again, just because you're a professional doesn't mean you are always going to do a better job than an amateur.

 

[Amp34]

I'm an electrician, I'm around skilled tradesmen all day every day.

Sure I can turn my hand to a spot of joinery. I can put skirting on, hang a door, build a stud wall. But I wouldn't dream of trying to put a roof together.

What we have here is people using the lowest common denominator. Anyone can spur off a socket, even split a ring to extend a kitchen if they really have a go at it.

But tell me what you're going to do when you swap your old fashioned consumer unit for a modern one with MCBs and RCDs and you can't get anything to switch on, it's all tripping out, it's driving you nuts.

Can you put together an S plan heating system and retro fit a solar powered water heater to it whilst your at it? When that heating system goes down can you diagnose and repair the fault?

Don't think so!

Honestly if you can do the above then you can put a roof on "easily" enough. It's laborious and can be awkward but the principles are pretty simple. Having help is exceedingly useful as well!

Again, the scale is the issue, not particularly the actual skills needed (over general building skills), alongside the height and slope of the work surface.

Would I prefer someone else did it? Yes! Would I prefer someone who's done it for years to help? Of course!

And yes, I've helped put roofs on in the past (both in the UK and here) - dad was a general builder for 40 years and I've worked/helped on various residential sites, and both family and my home over the years, so probably not quite your average DIY'r.

How long did it take you to learn to plaster? Can you get it so it's 100% spot on? Skimming etc. Every one tells me it's a dark art, even those who will do 90% of stuff themselves.

I still don't understand how plasterers get plaster to defy gravity. Whenever I try it always ends up on the floor, or more generally, my legs and feet.