Why are tradesmen so expensive

[rexehuk]

I've watched Grand Designs you can build a whole house with nothing more than YouTube and hope!

And some witty analogies from Kevin. Those are essential and provide solid foundations.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

So he didn't do the roof himself then? Various other skilled tradesmen did the skilled part of the job for him!

I don't think architects would class themselves as a trade personally, they would class themselves as a professional in my opinion/experience
The guy who owns the factory producing roofing beams to order wouldn't classify himself as a trade, but an entrepreneur
The guy loading the timber into the CNC may like to consider himself a trade I guess, would probably up his wage but pushing planks into a hopper doesn't require and skills I am afraid, nor does slecting the drawing so the machine knows exactly what to cut
The guy who pulls the pre cut pieces of timber out of the hopper lays them out to the spec and uses those connector thingies (no idea what the technical names is) would probably also like to say hes a trade. The reality is the bottom 2 are factory workers.

So no trades were present at any point.

If the definition of trade is someone who does something even the guy in the local car wash is a trade.

Its almost as if there is a generally accepted list of trades, and what they are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_construction_trades

I am struggling to see architect, business owner, factory operators on there...

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

What about those tradesmen that think they can build a decent home network etc, no bother if they watch youtube?

First company i worked for the guys in IT had all sorts of problems with the sparks. They would insist on using a pen knife to strip and terminate the network cables despite being told numerous times there was a proper tool and it worked far better and faster. The response was always "ive been a spark for xxx years, i know what I am doing, don't need some young IT geek telling me how to do my job"

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Plastering is definatly interesting, I've never tried it personally as I have never needed to.
My sisters father in law was a general builder but plasterer by trade. He built them an extension over about a year at weekends, and a few of us were roped in to help, and of everything I saw him do (and helpde with) by far the most skillful was the plastering.
Skillful here from the perspective of take a random bloke off the street and ask him to replicate (generation game style) and you would have had the most laughs.
There seemed to be a lot in the action to get enough friction to defy gravity, obviously going too thick pretty much guarantees its going to come back off

Plastering seems to be the highest skill but in reality lowest technical from what i can tell. Possibly ground workers are lower on both counts, but then some of the do use some pretty technical stuff so its hard to say they aren't higher trained depending what they actually do.

By far the biggest advantage trades normally have over a competent diyer is the tools. Its amazing how much difference using trade quality tools will make. Eg I have a £100 screwfix mitre saw, yet when I was doing my decking I was using one that cost about £3k. I used to and my other half still works for Speedy so we get 90% discount. Yes I could have used my saw, but its harder to get perfect cuts on, the big beastie was always spot on with no drama.

I'm still fixing the mistakes and poor quality the trades did in my house. Dodgy plaster areas (look like the plaster was fizzy so has lots of little holes for example), not quite painted areas of gloss, poor grouting (too high or low, cant fix the poorly aligned tiles of course), cross threaded screws in socket plates etc etc
The last house I lived in the spark had connected the phone socket in the master bedroom up wrongly, literally pushed the wires into the wrong terminals. And yet we trust these people with our lives

 

[Martynt74]

Might as well stick this in here.

We had an electrician rewire a house about a month ago, he couldn't do the kitchen because the old cabinets hadn’t been removed and the kitchen design not finalised. We agreed he’d come back to finish that when we were ready.

A few days after he left we discovered the upstairs lights kept tripping. Called him up and have been trying to get him to come check it out ever since. A few weeks ago we ripped the kitchen out and he was due to come last Wednesday, then called on the day to say it’d have to be yesterday. Yesterday came and went and whilst he’s quite good at getting in touch to keep us informed if he’s not coming he’s still not here.

The kitchen isn’t as urgent so can wait on that one but what are the options of telling him that if he can’t come soon to sort the lights out we’ll have to get someone else and invoice him for the work? My mother in law has already paid in full (even for the kitchen for some reason) so trying to end the contract isn’t really an option.

She’s due to move in soon and we’re behind on a few things as we don’t want to decorate upstairs incase he has to make more holes for wires etc

 

[Martynt74]

Had an update saying he can't come till next week now which means another weekend lost.

What's the best way of me trying to fault find this? It could just be a case of some wires touching. I have a multi meter but don't really know where to start.

I've done a basic electrical course years ago but that only covered things like wiring up plug sockets/lights. Nothing really about fault finding.

 

[touch]

I once had a debate with a nurse about who she considered smarter - the consultant using an MRI scanner or the engineer fixing the MRI scanner.
She chose the operator. Yet the engineer would be qualified and trained to dismantle and re-rebuild that machine, he would be required to know how to operate and what imagery to expect for fault finding and what adjustments he could make would affect the output. It would have been an engineer that would have written the training manual/taught the operator.

By that logic the people who built the tools that the engineer is using (multimeter, screwdriver, etc) are smarter than the engineer because that engineer is simply the operator of those tools.

I dont think you can infer intelligence based on the different things people have learned to do. The engineer may be smarter, or the consultant may be smarter - there's no way to tell in your scenario.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

By that logic the people who built the tools that the engineer is using (multimeter, screwdriver, etc) are smarter than the engineer because that engineer is simply the operator of those tools.

I dont think you can infer intelligence based on the different things people have learned to do. The engineer may be smarter, or the consultant may be smarter - there's no way to tell in your scenario.

Well put, I think its trades logic

Who is more highly skilled the brain surgeon or the guy who took the blade out of the CNC machine

 

[MassiveJim]

By that logic the people who built the tools that the engineer is using (multimeter, screwdriver, etc) are smarter than the engineer because that engineer is simply the operator of those tools.

I dont think you can infer intelligence based on the different things people have learned to do. The engineer may be smarter, or the consultant may be smarter - there's no way to tell in your scenario.

Incorrect comparison, the person that "built" the multimeter was probably just a factory worker, now the guy who designed/was able to fault find or fix the multimeter, now that's a smart guy.

They are both smart (to some degree) but in different areas

 

[ttaskmaster]

Someone doing it themselves can spend longer on a job to get to the same standard as the person doing it as a job, because they aren't getting paid by the hour/job.

But trades people are being paid by the hour. You're paying them to do it fast, do it well and probably cheap... and I'm sure someone has posted the triangular diagram of that many times before...

What do you define as a "professional" standard?

Good enough that other people would pay you good money to do the same for them and good enough (in your judgement, maybe) that you will happily put a legally binding guarantee on your workmanship, I suppose... Kinda how I would assess a tradesman that I was considering hiring myself.

I've been looking at a fair number of (eq) £600k - £800k new build houses recently and a lot of them have a a fair amount of work in them that is frankly shocking. All done by "professionals" to presumably a "professional" standard.

Is that what actually happened, or just what it says in the brochure from the developer who is flogging you these ¾ million Pound properties?
"Let's read the words, the words, the words, the words.... from the developer!!!"

Yes, many of those "professionals" may well be able to do a better job if they were given the time/money, but that goes back to the point in my previous post.

And again, that triangle of Fast-Well-Cheap comes in... assuming they are actual professionals, not utter cowboys.
Most of the complaints seem to come either from those who hired cowboys, or who don't like the fact that proper professional quality isn't cheap.

Like many things, being able to do something to a good standard and doing it as a job are not mutually exclusive.

I'd argue they are.
DIYing it so you're happy, however good a job you do in whatever time, is your own standard.
Doing it as a job is to someone else's standard and timescale.

That extends to IT, banking and a multitude of other industries/trades as well as building trades.

Very much so. But it's a rare person whose personal standards and requirements are higher than thiose expected of a professional.
Whoever first said, "Oh, that'll do" probably gave birth to the DIY culture at that point!

Just claiming that if you don't do something professionally means you're going to do something to a low standard is generally wrong tbh.

I believe in my particular context, I was referring to the poster equating his half-day of looking on the internet and maybe trialling it a couple of times beforehand, to a skilled tradesman with a decade or two of experience.

The guy loading the timber into the CNC may like to consider himself a trade I guess, would probably up his wage but pushing planks into a hopper doesn't require and skills I am afraid, nor does slecting the drawing so the machine knows exactly what to cut. The guy who pulls the pre cut pieces of timber out of the hopper lays them out to the spec and uses those connector thingies (no idea what the technical names is) would probably also like to say hes a trade.

Not sure what's going on here, but it sounds like the two guys are actually one.
The "connector thingies" sound like biscuits for jointing the wood.
He'd also be the guy who 'programmed' the CNC... or in this case I believe it would be a table router and you physically set those up with teh right distances and cutting bit(s) before feeding the wood through, rather than programming, generally. I'd hazard a guess he's also the one who measured up the dimensions for the wood in the first place and would then select the wood, resaw it, cross cut it, thickness it, plane it, put it through the router and finally plane it to finish before jointing it, all to the exact measurements.

In other words, it sounds like you're describing a joiner, who comes under the carpentry section of your list.

If the definition of trade is someone who does something even the guy in the local car wash is a trade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesman

By far the biggest advantage trades normally have over a competent diyer is the tools.

Some trades, perhaps, but only to a certain extent.
A half-decent carpenter will do far better with a £30 hand saw than you could do with a £9,000 bandsaw. Heck, with a touch of training, so would I.
Big expensive fancy tools only go so far and with powered ones especially the chances of mistakes are actually increased, as well as those mistakes ending up being outright diasters of far higher cost... and in some cases life-changing injuries. The powered aspect also means things can go wrong much quicker.

Its amazing how much difference using trade quality tools will make.

Indeed, but it's even more amazing how much more of a difference the right techniques make.

I'm still fixing the mistakes and poor quality the trades did in my house.

Stop hiring poor tradesmen, then!!

 

[Kimi]

All i would say is if you think they are expensive and you could do a better job yourself, go for it. Then get them in to repair the **** ups

 

[Amp34]

But trades people are being paid by the hour. You're paying them to do it fast, do it well and probably cheap... and I'm sure someone has posted the triangular diagram of that many times before...

That's my point.

A builder is not going to spend hours over one small detail, a homeowner doing it themselves may. They may not be able to do it as quick as someone with 30 years experience, but they may be able to make up the difference (especially with the time constraints a of the builder) by taking more time.

Good enough that other people would pay you good money to do the same for them and good enough (in your judgement, maybe) that you will happily put a legally binding guarantee on your workmanship, I suppose... Kinda how I would assess a tradesman that I was considering hiring myself.

So a fair number of tradespeople aren't professional then as their quality isn't good enough, whereas a fair number of amateurs could well consider themselves professional by your definition.

Is that what actually happened, or just what it says in the brochure from the developer who is flogging you these ¾ million Pound properties?
"Let's read the words, the words, the words, the words.... from the developer!!!"

These are houses built by different companies in different parts of the city, both in new estates and infills between older houses. Houses at 3x the average house price of the city and built to a standard that includes things like hardwood floors, natural stone tiles and tops, cantilever stairs etc.

Not that that matters, because the standard of some of the work is still poor, and it will have been done by so called professionals. The point is they aren't £100k starter homes where you could consider cutting corners to save costs as a legitimate option.

And again, that triangle of Fast-Well-Cheap comes in... assuming they are actual professionals, not utter cowboys.
Most of the complaints seem to come either from those who hired cowboys, or who don't like the fact that proper professional quality isn't cheap.

And again, that's the point.

The issue is there's going to be two bell curves, one for professionals and one for amateurs. For your average builder half are not going to be as good as them, half are going to be better. Many of those that aren't as good as average may well be not as good as one of the better amateurs.

Those bell curves for standard of finish will also shift depending on how long the builder has been given/given themselves to do the job. As in the above example of those tradespeople may well have been able to provide a better finish if they were given the time/money to do so, but in those cases they weren't (for whatever reason) and it was still deemed acceptable.

Now I'm sure if you get a good tradesman with 30 years experience and say you want the best possible standard, then pay them by the hour until they deem it finished then sure, they are probably going to finish it to a better standard than the vast majority of amateurs. But then how often does that happen outside of multimillion £ contracts, and how often does that need to happen? Running cable is running cable, framing is framing, it's only really when you get to the finish that that's more relevant, such as tiling, painting, cabinetry etc, but again how often does that happen in your average residential work?

(To be clear here I'm not saying anything about the standard of finish I do, and as I said before I wouldn't do it as a job because of all the extra issues doing a trade as a job provides. I'm disputing your claim about "amateurs" vs "professionals" in general and that your average professional is going to provide a better final product than all non professionals.).

I'd argue they are.
DIYing it so you're happy, however good a job you do in whatever time, is your own standard.
Doing it as a job is to someone else's standard and timescale.

And that's the difference between someone doing it as a job and an amateur (in this sense not being paid). The difficulty is not just the finished product, it's the other parts of doing it as a job that as well, the interacting with customers, doing it to the standard required in the time required etc. It's what I pointed out in an earlier post.

Very much so. But it's a rare person whose personal standards and requirements are higher than thiose expected of a professional.
Whoever first said, "Oh, that'll do" probably gave birth to the DIY culture at that point!

I, and most of the people in this thread must be those rare people then.

I believe in my particular context, I was referring to the poster equating his half-day of looking on the internet and maybe trialling it a couple of times beforehand, to a skilled tradesman with a decade or two of experience.

So that's one of the caveats then.

Stop hiring poor tradesmen, then!!

That's the problem, there are apparently a lot of poor tradesmen around. you may be a really good one, in which case I'm sure you go to a lot of jobs and complain about the poor quality of previous work. Heck, complaining about the pervious persons work is about as quintessential as tea breaks in the building trade.

 

[ttaskmaster]

A builder is not going to spend hours over one small detail, a homeowner doing it themselves may.

They will if you pay them enough....

So a fair number of tradespeople aren't professional then as their quality isn't good enough, whereas a fair number of amateurs could well consider themselves professional by your definition.

Yes, very much so. In terms of their standards, at least.
If you're THAT good that you'd put a guarantee on your workmanship and own up to it if the work then failed, then yeah that is professional.

The point is they aren't £100k starter homes where you could consider cutting corners to save costs as a legitimate option.

So?
Money is money and if a developer can save cash by hiring in cheap workers who can bodge it to make them more profit, it's perfectly legitimate as far as they are concerned. Having fancy features doesn't mean the only people in the game are good, honest, hard working rich folk... In fact, chances are the people buying such fancy frippery in their houses have money to burn and don't care what it costs, perhaps even expect it to cost a fortune, so are just rich idiots ripe for the fleecing... It's all in your Rogue Traders handbook.

But then how often does that happen outside of multimillion £ contracts, and how often does that need to happen? Running cable is running cable, framing is framing, it's only really when you get to the finish that that's more relevant, such as tiling, painting, cabinetry etc, but again how often does that happen in your average residential work?

Depends on the trade - I'd generally argue that things are not just things and the better you do the basic things, the more likely the finish will be easier, better and of higher quality.

I'm disputing your claim about "amateurs" vs "professionals" in general and that your average professional is going to provide a better final product than all non professionals.).

In principle and in general, yes, your average professional will be better.
There is some variance between trades and in some of them your average professional will be FAR better, because it takes more skill to do even the basics.
In other trades it will not, because it takes less skill and it is more widely accessible, meaning you get more cowboys able to spin a fast buck (or thousand) before ******* off with your hard-earned. I'd say it's fair that it's more common in the Building trades, as a little knowledge and experience allows you to blag it a long way.

A good number of them are former DIYers/amateurs who realised there was profit to be made - That's exactly how I ended up in Reading, in fact. A mate and I started a property maintenance business, with the express aim of delivering a professional service and with each of us specialising in different areas. Downside is we were undercut by the seasonal influx of amateurs-turned-'professional' cowboys and we never got the business up to profit. All we were left with was the satisfaction of seeing the customers who turned us down and the trainwrecks that now adorn their homes!

it's the other parts of doing it as a job that as well, the interacting with customers, doing it to the standard required in the time required etc. It's what I pointed out in an earlier post.

And I am in agreement.

I, and most of the people in this thread must be those rare people then.

They're not professionals, though, they're the cowboys... In the uncommon cases who are actual professionals, as discussed above, if your standards are higher than even them, you are now into the flying pig realms of being unrealistic or not understanding the limitations of the material/substance/whatever and "can ******* well go do it yourself, then" as the professionals would be walking away at this point!!

So that's one of the caveats then.

It's what I was prodding at in this specific instance, yeah.
Further conversation with the poster has clarified the issue.

That's the problem, there are apparently a lot of poor tradesmen around.

In some trades, yes, because there's a lot of work and it's easy to blag it. But that doesn't mean the average amateur is especially good, either. Same for driving, really - Just because a bunch of people ar utter cack at it, doesn't mean someone who meets the basic standard is awesome.

you may be a really good one, in which case I'm sure you go to a lot of jobs and complain about the poor quality of previous work.

Technically I do qualify as a tradesperson, I guess. Somewhere between the Construction and Service branches, with fingers in both and several CITB type qualifications covering it.... not that I'd really refer to it as such. I've always regarded a Trade as more like a Craft, while I'm more toward the Engineering side.

But yes, we do complain about the previous work, mainly because they only call us when the previous work has failed and I can tell which bunch of cowboys did it based on the modes of failure!!
Actually, the more I think about it, the more born-awesome I start to sound...

 

[Amp34]

They will if you pay them enough....

Perhaps this goes back to the OP but how often does that actually happen though? Unless we're talking multi million contracts it's extremely unlikely a tradesperson will be given carte blanche to do their best possible job, no time or money constraints. You need to get stuff done to an acceptable standard in a speedy time, otherwise your costs are going to be way too high compared to others quoting for the same work. Perhaps those should be the costs clients expect to pay, but that's just unlikely to happen generally.

Yes, very much so. In terms of their standards, at least.
If you're THAT good that you'd put a guarantee on your workmanship and own up to it if the work then failed, then yeah that is professional.

If they want to actually work in construction. There's many reasons why people don't, even if they are skilled - the dealing with the all the faf that comes with doing it for other people being one. Better pay in another industry being another, retirement and just enjoying something as a hobby being others.

As an example construction of some form would have been my fallback career if I'd dropped out of uni, working in the family company, but I'd rather be doing what I do now for a variety of reasons.

So?
Money is money and if a developer can save cash by hiring in cheap workers who can bodge it to make them more profit, it's perfectly legitimate as far as they are concerned. Having fancy features doesn't mean the only people in the game are good, honest, hard working rich folk... In fact, chances are the people buying such fancy frippery in their houses have money to burn and don't care what it costs, perhaps even expect it to cost a fortune, so are just rich idiots ripe for the fleecing... It's all in your Rogue Traders handbook.

Still irrelevant. The construction company either employs or subcontracts these "cowboys" and thinks their work is an acceptable professional standard. That means they warranty that work, ergo professional by your definition. Again the issue is that while there are plenty of good builders out there, there's plenty of bad/mediocre ones too. If an amateur can get the same standard of finish as even the mediocre ones then they're ahead of a significant proportion of tradespeople.

Depends on the trade - I'd generally argue that things are not just things and the better you do the basic things, the more likely the finish will be easier, better and of higher quality.

Hence why I gave some examples of both.

In principle and in general, yes, your average professional will be better.
There is some variance between trades and in some of them your average professional will be FAR better, because it takes more skill to do even the basics.
In other trades it will not, because it takes less skill and it is more widely accessible, meaning you get more cowboys able to spin a fast buck (or thousand) before ******* off with your hard-earned. I'd say it's fair that it's more common in the Building trades, as a little knowledge and experience allows you to blag it a long way.

A good number of them are former DIYers/amateurs who realised there was profit to be made - That's exactly how I ended up in Reading, in fact. A mate and I started a property maintenance business, with the express aim of delivering a professional service and with each of us specialising in different areas. Downside is we were undercut by the seasonal influx of amateurs-turned-'professional' cowboys and we never got the business up to profit. All we were left with was the satisfaction of seeing the customers who turned us down and the trainwrecks that now adorn their homes!

*****

In some trades, yes, because there's a lot of work and it's easy to blag it. But that doesn't mean the average amateur is especially good, either. Same for driving, really - Just because a bunch of people ar utter cack at it, doesn't mean someone who meets the basic standard is awesome.

Just grouping these together as they are essentially the same subject.

The issue is there's not an insignificant number of cowboys in the industry, many of whom will consider themselves professional and charge accordingly. You can't really just ignore them and cast them off when making comparisons. I agree with the general premise though. As I said before some professionals will be a cut above the rest, but that doesn't mean all tradespeople will be better than all amateurs, especially when money and time come into it.

They're not professionals, though, they're the cowboys... In the uncommon cases who are actual professionals, as discussed above, if your standards are higher than even them, you are now into the flying pig realms of being unrealistic or not understanding the limitations of the material/substance/whatever and "can ******* well go do it yourself, then" as the professionals would be walking away at this point!!

I've had not dissimilar sentiment a few times from my father, I end up doing it instead. Takes longer though.

Technically I do qualify as a tradesperson, I guess. Somewhere between the Construction and Service branches, with fingers in both and several CITB type qualifications covering it.... not that I'd really refer to it as such. I've always regarded a Trade as more like a Craft, while I'm more toward the Engineering side.

But yes, we do complain about the previous work, mainly because they only call us when the previous work has failed and I can tell which bunch of cowboys did it based on the modes of failure!!

Exactly, and agreed.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more born-awesome I start to sound...

 

[mattyy]

By that logic the people who built the tools that the engineer is using (multimeter, screwdriver, etc) are smarter than the engineer because that engineer is simply the operator of those tools.

I dont think you can infer intelligence based on the different things people have learned to do. The engineer may be smarter, or the consultant may be smarter - there's no way to tell in your scenario.

I agree but it wasn't really what I was getting at. The scenario was about the MRI machine. Nothing to do with tools or the car the consultant drove to work in but simply how to work that bit of kit. My opinion was that the engineer/designer of said hardware would be more knowledgable with it than a trained operator.

What you have done is proved how this argument goes on and on, by comparing two completely different skill sets and trying to compare them - brain surgeon and a CNC operator?! Both are smart in their own rights - I wouldn't expect a brain surgeon to know the different hardness levels of metals. Likewise I wouldn't expect a MRI consultant to have in depth knowledge of a multimeter...

 

[mattyy]

I don't think architects would class themselves as a trade personally, they would class themselves as a professional in my opinion/experience
The guy who owns the factory producing roofing beams to order wouldn't classify himself as a trade, but an entrepreneur
The guy loading the timber into the CNC may like to consider himself a trade I guess, would probably up his wage but pushing planks into a hopper doesn't require and skills I am afraid, nor does slecting the drawing so the machine knows exactly what to cut
The guy who pulls the pre cut pieces of timber out of the hopper lays them out to the spec and uses those connector thingies (no idea what the technical names is) would probably also like to say hes a trade. The reality is the bottom 2 are factory workers.

So no trades were present at any point.

If the definition of trade is someone who does something even the guy in the local car wash is a trade.

Its almost as if there is a generally accepted list of trades, and what they are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_construction_trades

I am struggling to see architect, business owner, factory operators on there...

Fair point. So it comes down to how other people deem skills they don't possess easy to learn and how the skills they do have hard to learn.
Although in your eyes a CNC operator 'only' pushes planks into a hopper and is deemed in your eyes to have no skills - by definition he does. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill

The fact is you don't think those skills are as difficult to learn than yours.
Back onto trademens, I'd like to see you to quote for an install of a three phase distribution system to include the supply of complex lighting circuits and numerous ring mains - in what the regs deem as a special location. If you can do that in half a day of internet learning from no previous experience then I bow down to you. That is without any of the 'rule of thumb' lark that is quoted on the internet but correctly calculated cable calculations, breaker sizing calculations etc. Give me four years and I can do it, half a day...

 

[m4rmite]

When it comes to diy my wife thinks I am skilled in every trade.. oh you can do this and that its easy.......... Yeah right.
I look at it this way, if I can't do it then I don't begrudge paying someone to do it for me.

Btw the last time I paid someone was to plaster the rear living room.
Only time I attempted to plaster my kitchen was followed by a day of sanding it flat.
The wife didn't like the 3d effect I had created

 

[TallPaul1878]

Yesterday I had a landlord call me about a faulty socket in the kitchen.

He uses a different electrician for his remedial work but as I am a friend of a friend he decided to give me a call.

The previous electrician had diagnosed an "earth fault" in the kitchen and decided to split the ring whilst leaving both sides of the, now radial, circuit on the 32A breaker. He said it was a temporary measure whilst the landlord would need to have a new ring main installed for the house.

So I turn up with my tools and tester. Open up the socket and find an earth fault, but it needs to be chased round the circuit. I eventually found the culprit was simply a very old socket in the hallway that had fused over. Replacing the old socket and conducting Insulation Resistance and Continuity tests I found the fault to be completely cured.

Not bad for 60 minutes work and a damn sight less expensive than rewiring the house.

There are good tradesmen and there are crap ones. Don't let your experience with the latter cloud your judgement towards the former

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Fair point. So it comes down to how other people deem skills they don't possess easy to learn and how the skills they do have hard to learn.
Although in your eyes a CNC operator 'only' pushes planks into a hopper and is deemed in your eyes to have no skills - by definition he does. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill

The fact is you don't think those skills are as difficult to learn than yours.
Back onto trademens, I'd like to see you to quote for an install of a three phase distribution system to include the supply of complex lighting circuits and numerous ring mains - in what the regs deem as a special location. If you can do that in half a day of internet learning from no previous experience then I bow down to you. That is without any of the 'rule of thumb' lark that is quoted on the internet but correctly calculated cable calculations, breaker sizing calculations etc. Give me four years and I can do it, half a day...

Is always the way that other peoples jobs look easy when you don't understand the technical aspects.
Parts of my job are easy thats for sure, parts are easy for me due to experience, and parts are tricky even for me with lots of experience (and qualifications)

I guess the CNC operator was a bad suggestion but the point goes actually. I have worked in a factory with lots of CNCs and they very dramatically. From the one where the guy operating needs to do lots of setup, to the one where you just select the job from a list and start feeding the raw material, the system will have the technical drawings broken down to parts and an algorithm deciding the best way to make the cuts. I guess I was thinking of the better end of the scale which of course is not necessarily what every business would have.

I get your point on the complicated scenario, and its completely true, however most of the time homeowners are not doing that sort of work. A full rewire with complex lighting in a special location is certainly not a half a day scenario

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Yesterday I had a landlord call me about a faulty socket in the kitchen.

He uses a different electrician for his remedial work but as I am a friend of a friend he decided to give me a call.

The previous electrician had diagnosed an "earth fault" in the kitchen and decided to split the ring whilst leaving both sides of the, now radial, circuit on the 32A breaker. He said it was a temporary measure whilst the landlord would need to have a new ring main installed for the house.

So I turn up with my tools and tester. Open up the socket and find an earth fault, but it needs to be chased round the circuit. I eventually found the culprit was simply a very old socket in the hallway that had fused over. Replacing the old socket and conducting Insulation Resistance and Continuity tests I found the fault to be completely cured.

Not bad for 60 minutes work and a damn sight less expensive than rewiring the house.

There are good tradesmen and there are crap ones. Don't let your experience with the latter cloud your judgement towards the former

Now see this is exactly the problem many non trades feel. They feel that often trades aren't that great and your paying premium for a poor service.
How to sort the good from the bad. And then sometimes the challenge is getting the good ones to want to do your job. My sisters father in law now retired, used to turn down lots of invitations to quote even.
he had a very good reputation, but even that I feel can be overrated, how is joe blogs with non of the expertise required to work out if for example a spark has correctly specified all the parts, done a good and safe install.
Take the example of that guys armoured cable fault, if it worked well he may well have recommended that spark to someone else as doing a good quick cheap job

So what would you expectation have been in regards the first spark, did he not bother checking for an earth fault? And just jump to a conclusion of the most expensive piece of work needing to be done based on age of some sockets?

You sound like the sort of guy that most of us round here would cry out for to work on our jobs, where are you based?