Why are you not vegan....

[Johno please?]

Soya is actually damaging to the environment as well. It’s one of the biggest drivers of deforestation.

Indeed, and ironically 75-85% of soy globally is used for what..... animal feed.

 

[Johno please?]

I have a feeling this thread hasn’t quite gone the way Johno was hoping it would

Its surpassed my expectations tbh who wants to live in an echo chamber anyway? id use twitter if I wanted that, I don't ever remember getting this upset when I saw posts from vegans on social media when I ate meat

If meat was bannned tomorrow, do you have visions of all the millions and millions of animals just spending the rest of their lives grazing happily in a field?

That would be nice wouldn't it, the world isn't nice though.

I envisage animals being looked after in sanctuaries as we swap over to maybe lab grown meats but I dunno, I just do what I can personally.

 

[Johno please?]

Palm oil is used in a lot, lot more products than just "animal products" and you've probably been in contact and/or eaten it recently; worth reading up on its uses rather than simply regurgitating nonsense.

Edit - Worth adding, i believe majority of palm oil used in the UK is from sustainable sources but still.....

It is yea but mainly its breads/biscuits/margarine etc but I honestly don't think i've consumed it in ages.

But I'll reiterate, Veganism is about as far as is possible to exclude all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

 

[Johno please?]

Aspects of it seem pointless when it's just stopping the exploitation of for eggs laid by a rescue hen etc. sure the animals have technically been "exploited" but realistically there isn't really much of a cruelty argument if the hen was otherwise due to be killed because it's old/doesn't lay so frequently.

Likewise, not eating muscles, oysters, scallops etc. if you can eat plants or fungus then why not eat those too?

Yea theres some argument for consuming eggs from hens youve rescued, although it takes a lot out of them because the way theyve been bred so you can feed them back to the hens for nutrition.

I'm not sure of the muscles and oysters capacity for suffering, but then I never ate seafood anyway.

After a v.quick google... "However, as oysters do not have a central nervous system, they are not believed to be sentient and so don't feel pain....."

 

[Johno please?]

I guess just like with the alphabet community, they have to let everyone know. Same with vegans, too many people want to feel special so the tell everyone but on the whole, nobody really cares.

I dont think so, have I played the victim card here? Its not like a cow, pig or chicken can speak up for itself is it....

 

[Johno please?]

OP are you one of those Insulate Britain nutters who alienates everyone and turns them off to their message because they just shout at people about how bad they are?

Certainly come across that way.

Na I wouldnt support sitting on the A1 to help veganism. I think because I had just watched a bit of this documetary ( https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/ ) so emotions were a bit "high", hence why I renamed the title.

 

[Johno please?]

Yeah famously all that meat in peanut butter and I do love me some beef shampoo

Its very easy to get peanut butter or shampoo without palm oil. But what I said is true. Its mainly also in use along with milk in things like biscuits etc.

The above is so full of crap it's hard to know where to begin.

Bull calves (males) go to the same place and undertake the same treatment as a heifer calf (female). They are kept in pens and fed milk which is milked from the dairy herd. They are castrated with rubber bands from very early age (generally few days old) turning them from bulls into bullocks and both bullocks and heifers are de-horned.

Eventually, when old enough they are raised as beef bullocks either on same farm if they run a beef operation or sold at market for beef farms. They are then fattened up over a period of time and sold for beef.

The heifers go into the dairy herd.



See above - you continue to say stupid stuff today.



You shouldnt have to rely on emotionally charged examples to support an argument. You're using child abuse to support an argument on not eating meat? Wow.





Much of the UK (primarily Wales and Scotland) do not have land conducive to non-meat production. Until lab produced meat is available on a commercial scale, how do we feed the UK if everyone turns vegan?

We could try and get greater yields from our veg/grain production but that would involve pesticide use which kills insects (vegans wouldn't like that) or we can be more reliant.on imports which have obvious consequences which we are seeing today with energy.

Do you work on a dairy farm by any chance? What would happen to a baby cow if the mother is in late stage pregnancy when slaughtered?

You better tell the RSPCA theyre full of crap as well....

What happens to bobby calves? – RSPCA Knowledgebase

A lion or tiger doesn't care if a cow, pig or chicken can speak for itself. It just sees food, natural way of nature.

Youre not a lion or tiger.

p.s. PETA have murdered people and done many acts of violence.... whilst feeling completely justified.
p.p.s. PETA is a disgusting organisation. Truly.

I obviously wouldn't agree with that, dont have a problem with direct action though.

 

[Johno please?]

I've frequently thought about it, but my desire to eat meat is greater than my desire to not eat it. I don't like industrial farming and really should think about where the food I eat is sourced. But I'd still eat meat.

Nearly bought black pudding today when I went to buy burgers for weekend BBQ.

Would you be upset if you saw or even just heard about a dog or cat being gassed to death with carbon dioxide?

 

[Johno please?]

If the sausages are made to resemble meat, they often are horrible . I do not see why vegans wish to see products resembling products from animals or made from animals. It seems counterintuitive. I am quite happy to eat a product made from vegetable protein, nuts etc., which is different in looks and texture from a sausage or burger.
Then again I do enjoy a bit of lambs liver with onions and mashed potatoes.

You really cant figure out why? Jeez, ok well its not the taste of meat I dislike, its the cruelty.

I don't think it is possible to have a healthy vegan diet without humans suffering to cultivate the crops and fruits that are needed. So I don't think there is any moral high ground.

I think you posted a video of a cow being slaughtered in the YouTube thread. I've seen how animals hunt for there food and I've watched animals scream in pain as they are eaten alive, I have watched unborn animals ripped out of their mothers womb and then eaten alive after spending less than a minute on this earth. Its unfortunate that in a slaughter house there deaths are not painless but I am not bothered by it.

Yea that was the video that turned me proper vegan tbh. the FSA approved that slaughterhouse (if they even watched it footage I dont know) which I find a bit disturbing.

Indeed, animals eating other animals alive is petty horrific, we don't need to replicate it or do anything similar.

 

[Johno please?]

I'm not totally sure what you are against @Johno please? Is it killing animals at all for food or the industrial nature of modern intensive farming?

Yea both.

You know how you're most likely against firing a bolt into a dogs head or gassing a cat to death? Well i'm against that for all animals.

 

[Johno please?]

And that film is about American meat production so is irrelevant to the UK animal standards.

The OP used the RSPCA link earlier to try and push welfare issues but failed to state it was the RSPCA Australia site.

Other countries have crap animal welfare standards, we know this and we can do nothing more than ensure we don't buy imported meat from those countries. It's disingenuous to use foreign practices to further your point.

Posters should be genuine and use examples of sanctioned UK practices.

Yea thats was my bad I was in a rush this morning. but then comparing the practices, they're pretty much the same anyway, except we don't beat baby male cows to death or shoot them on the farm anymore, we send them down the road to a slaughterhouse instead. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...scary-public-farming-calves-pens-alternatives

Do you think chopping of a pigs tail, "trimming" its teeth, then have it live inside for 5months then being gassed to death is "humane"? or "high welfare"?

Undercover footage of UK farming - https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/

 

[Johno please?]

When you have an animal it becomes quite hard to actually eat that animal. Who would eat a dog in the UK? I know some of you would!

This is Claudia. Shes my really dog like hen. And she really does love a to be held.

What a beaut, we're gonna rescue some chickens one day, people always give them funny old school names.

 

[Johno please?]

Cows-in-calf are not slaughtered so this is a pile of nonsense unless for very rare humane reasons like severe injury and it would be cruel to keep them alive and suffering. Do you agree this would be acceptable?

Your source is the RSPCA in AUSTRALIA. Tell me how that relates to the UK and how our practices are the same?

Yea soz I was in a rush this morning didn't check it properly, but then are the standard practices really that much different?

Ive seen reports from other countries that do slaughter pregnant cows, but if we don't that's a minor plus I guess.

 

[Johno please?]

Not only that but plants are living things. By eating plants one is killing. I have no problem with people being Vegetarian or Vegan but they hold zero morale high ground as they are killing just as much if not more then the meat eaters. It always amazes me how many vegetarians don't realize what they are eating was alive and they are killing a living thing. Not all of them but a lot of them don't stop to think what they are eating was alive until they kill it.

Youre joking right? Do you think its the same to cut into a carrot and cutting a lambs foot off?

Do plants have a brain or central nervous system, how much can they actually suffer?

 

[Johno please?]

That depends if we are talking about the lamb being alive or dead when you cut the foot off. If its already dead then yes its the same. Which is why being a vegetarian is not any better from a moral point of view.

No I am not joking as both are living organisms that you kill. I don't think its wrong to eat meat when the source it comes from didn't suffer. Some plants do have a system that does a similar job as a central nervous system and they do feel the environment around them and know when they are being damaged as they can communicate damage to the rest of the plant. Plants communicate distress with there own kind of nervous system. A few years back I was reading a study by biologists on Mustrad plants and how they use the same type of signals as animals to relay distress.

So if its about suffering you are ok with eating meat that does not suffer? What about when the animal doesnt have a brain or doesnt have a central nervous system is it ok to eat then? If not then just why is that not ok but a plant is? I can understand not wanting to eat meat from sources that suffered like the big breeding factory's but I don't see any reason to not eat meant from a source that did not suffer. Doing so is no different then eating plants. There are lots of reason to be a vegetarian but I don't see vegetarians as better from a moral point of view.

Obviously im talking about if the lamb and plant is alive, they 100% do not suffer in the same way. And no I wouldn't be ok with it because animals still suffer when they are killed, there's no such thing as "humane slaughter", you can kill with LESS suffering but they still suffer to some degree and you're ultimately still taking their life. And You still eat plants though right?

But this is really besides the point, we can't survive on a "meat" only diet, wheres as we have to eat at least some plants.

No, no they're not. You only have to look at how we farm beef, for example, and compare that to the states to realise that we have a lot higher standards.

Oh yea I dont disagree, some countries have even more appalling standards or none at all, but I was actually referring standard practices in the dairy industry.

Hardly an unbiased story. It's full of emotionally charged language to draw outrage from people who have no actual lived experiences of farming.

From the article:

So we have Animal Equality who have an agenda claiming a breach and we have officials from Trading Standards rebutting this claim. Hardly damning

I will stop here otherwise this post could be much much longer as the Guardian article can be ripped to shreds by anyone who even has the slightest of knowledge, something the writer does not.

You should do yourself a favour and go visit an animal operation (beef, sheep, dairy etc) and get some actual first hand experience rather than reading heavily biased articles where the writer is either lazy, has an agenda or both.

It may benefit others here too.


Oh, TLDR - linked Guardian article is full of crap.

Thanks for the info, the problem I have with industry bodies like trading standards or the FSA is that the slaughterhouse footage that turned me vegan that clearly must be breaching some standards by bolt gunning a cow 3 times (waiting in between each shot) and cutting the throat of a cow while not properly stunned was signed off by the FSA.... so you might understand why im skeptical of what they say. https://www.clactonandfrintongazett...lacton-slaughterhouse-recording-secret-video/

Ignoring the "emotional charged language" Cows are indeed maternal animals and ive seen cows following vans across a field after the farmer has just taken away its calf. This is cruelty and something im obviously against, then this will happen again and again to this cow correct? Until its "spent" then ultimately killed anyway, so you see my point?

I actually grew up near a dairy farm when I was 8-18, something never did sit right with me seeing the cows hind legs tied together with rope and their massive unnatural looking udders.... wasnt aware of the other stuff though.

1. How did you think cows were slaughtered? Bolt to the head which stuns them is about the most humane way possible currently.

2. Pretty sure cockrels don't lay eggs so that makes sense.

3. tail docking is fairly common, done for a multitude of reasons, tooth trimming is done to prevent damage to the sows teats when feeding. When a piglets starts feeding they take ownership of a teat and will defend it, trimming of the incisors prevents damage to the sow and other piglets if they get feisty.

I respect your choice to not eat meat, I also don't care what you think other people should/should not do.

It doesnt always work, ive seen video footage of this not happening, it can require more than one bolt. But even if it takes one bolt its irrelevant you're still paying someone to take their life unnecessarily. Cows can live up to 20yrs.

Yes reasons including they get so stressed out in their poor conditions they bite each others tails, and this is before we even mention the being forced into a cage and gassed where they scream and thrash about.

I respect your choice to eat meat about as much as I respect people who use dogs for fighting or other people who abuse animals.

 

[Johno please?]

Last time I looked into this going full vegetarian and everyone dropping meat meant causing twice as much pollution and industry as we have now. Hurting climate change even worse then the current behavior. Everyone going vegetarian is less space efficient and causes all sorts of scaling problems that would lead to more pollution and worse climate change. If we all dropped meat things like Rice production would increase and Rice agriculture accelerates global warming more then the meat industry: Some of the largest produces of methane come from growing Vegetarian food and in many ways this is worse then meat production. If you are really worryed about that environment you should be dropping things like rice and switching to meat. Over half of all methane is produced by the agriculture industry and if we all dropped meat and changed to vegetarian that would only get worse, much worse.

You didn't look very hard then. And you seem confused, you keep mentioning vegetarianism, im not promoting that. And the environment aspect, again which im not promoting, it just so happens that being a vegan is also good for the planet.

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose"

Plant-based foods are good for both health and the environment | University of Oxford

New analysis by researchers from the University of Oxford and the University of Minnesota has identified a range of ‘win-win’ foods that both improve human health and have a low impact on the environment.

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[Johno please?]

I appreciate you grew up near one but, unless it's explained or you have worked on one, it's not the same

The legs are tied for a reason - to assist the cow. Sometimes after birthing, the hind legs are stressed/worn out to the point that, when the cow tries to stand, the legs splay out (think of the hind legs doing the splits)

The legs are tied with a length of rope looped at each end with around 1-2 feet between the loops so that it prevents the legs from splaying out and allows the cow to stand.

Even humans sometimes have trouble with their legs after childbirth but we have wheelchairs etc and a developed brain/medical staff to cope with and understand it whereas an animal will repeatedly try and stand causing itself further injury.

The point is - people see things and come to a conclusion that it's cruelty rather than finding out the reason why and forming a decision from there.


Regarding the bad practices in a slaughterhouse - they should be exposed and the person either prosecuted if intentional or retrained if it's clear its due to lack of knowledge of processes.

Yea I think I remember asking the farmer years ago what the rope was for.

Oh it certainly wasn't "lack of knowledge" it appeared to be intentional sadism, link to the video if you wish to watch it.

*VIDEO removed*

btw, our morals are defined by our society and culture, what is right now would not be in another time period. I am not the one here questioning people on their life choices and putting guilt trips on them.


p.s. I am here sitting in the dark with no lights on (i don't usually, the TV has enough light) drinking black tea and I am the bad person having ate some Heinz tinned chicken noodle soup with 2% chicken at lunchtime.

I don't think people who eat meat are bad people, were all brought up to eat meat after all and all my friends eat meat but il also guarantee most if not all wont be aware of some of the terrible things that happen, but you definitely contribute towards cruelty if you buy meat or dairy.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/webContent/staticImages/BroilerCampaign/EatSitSufferRepeat.pdf

 

[Johno please?]

People usually don't cut off the lambs leg while its alive. At the point the leg it cut off the animal is already dead getting no distress and is not aware. Unlike the plant which is getting distress signals and sending those distress signals. Of course I still eat plants because the plant is suffering the same as the animal as long as the animal is killed in the right way for example if it dies in its sleep there is zero distress. I see both as living things and killing both is the same, a plant life is still a lifeform. You are not better because you choose to kill one over the other. You are still killing. As per the biologist paper I read the plants still communicate distress with there own kind of nervous system with the same type of signals as animals use to relay distress.

I see you skipped over my question. What about when the animal doesnt have a brain or doesnt have a central nervous system is it ok to eat then? If not then just why is that not ok but a plant is? Like I said before there are lots of valid reasons to be a vegetarian but I don't see vegetarians as better from a moral point of view and in fact the vegetarians who act like they are better and try to force there ways onto other people are if anything less moral. Being vegetarian or following Veganism isn't automatically better for the planet and doesnt make a person better from a moral point of view. I have no problem with people wanting a Veganism life style or just want vegetarian meals but I don't like the high horse we are better then you attitude that some people with Veganism/vegetarian lifestyles have.



"You didn't look very hard then. And you seem confused, you keep mentioning vegetarianism, im not promoting that. And the environment aspect, again which im not promoting, it just so happens that being a vegan is also good for the planet.

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose""

I did look hard and I was correct. There is no confusion as my posts makes sense in relation to the person I was quoting. I cannot see what you are confused about. Being vagen is not automatically good for the planet its massively worse in many areas like I showed with rice production which is worse for the planet then meat production. I am all for treating animals better but I don't see how following Veganism or being a vegetarian make someone better. You don't need to follow Veganism to be aginst those factories that treat animals badly.

No, you eat plants because you have to, again its about necessity. This mental gymnastics you're playing to try to justify eating animals is really weird and not based in reality or facts, il say it again....Plants do not suffer in the same way, we, or other animals do. You think killing a sentient being like a cow is the same as pulling a carrot from the ground, you genuinely believe that?

If any animal doesn't have nervous system or are sentient like say an oyster and thus cant really suffer, then I wouldn't have a problem with people eating it.

Here's a basic hypothetical, you're driving down the road, in the road is a big potted plant and dog, you only have enough space to dodge one of them, which one will you dodge?

 

[Johno please?]

What a Piz!

Oof I know, I know.... /e pal

 

[Johno please?]

Its stuff like this that just makes the vegan lifestyle advocates come across as really, really silly, to put it polite.

Stick to the environmental and economic aspect of the argument. No one cares about killing farmed animals.

Farm animals exist only to be "farmed" and be consumed/used. When there's a sufficiently economical and good alternative to animal products there will be a natural migration to them... Domesticated farm animals will simply cease to exist and that chapter of human history will be over.

Its a beautiful time to be alive were not only is food abundant but you can choose exactly what you want to eat based on whatever your belief is. Most people couldn't dream of that even 100 years ago.

I read somewhere that in a hypothetical future, this periods geological record/fossil record will contain such a thick layer of "chicken bones" that you could probably date the late 20th and 21st century specifically from them alone...

Anyway cool story.


and the car. Of course you wouldn't kill the dog, its a domesticated pet animal to most westerners its a symbol of a family home. China, maybe they would hit the dog, then eat it after. Free lunch?

Strange thing to say, obviously some people do care that's why Veganism exists, You know how you probably care about a dog or cat you own? Well I now just extend that care to cows/pigs/chickens etc.

I think its a bit disingenuous to say there isn't good alternatives to eating meat, we know there is.

Basically a result of an affluent west. Veganism or any form of "diet" for moral or lifestyle choice is a recent development. Go to even places like the Philippines, we are not talking about some poor African nation, you will find people who would just eat what they can get their hands on. Hell, go to Hong Kong, a developed modern city, a lot of the working class would eat these rice noodles (it's rolled up) with soy and fishballs for less than a £1 and the fishballs on the top would be a luxury addition.

Poor people don't get to choose what diet they are on, their diet is forced upon them due to their economic status. When they have a bit of money, they would go a get a bit of meat in their meal as a treat. That's my background, that's what like to eat if I am in HK.

This holier-than-thou attitude that talks down to others, because they are not a vegan, is a terrible modern human trait and the worst part is that they don't even see it. They live in a bubble so much that they have no idea how privileged they are to be in that position in the first place to be able to make that choice. They have no idea what situation others are in and blindly judge them for their actions just because they had a ham sandwich at lunch-time.

Rice noodles, and soy? so replace the fish with a bit of veg and you've got a vegan meal, you've sort of disproved your own argument there about "veganism being one of western privilege"

But I guess il have to say it again because you're not getting it, veganism is about trying to exclude and reduce harm to animals, its not perfect and just by existing we all cause some amount of harm to something or someone.

Do I believe animal welfare could be better, yes ofcourse I do. But, let's be honest; you vegans kill far more animals than us carnivores. Yes, I'm a carnivore! No sugars, no plants and nothing artificial for 6 months and I feel great. You conveniently forget about the untold millions of small mamals, birds and insects that get killed for arable farming. Do they matter less?

Or are you going with the myth that cows are killing the ozone layer with methane? If that was true why is it that every study of pollution levels show that areas where cattle farming takes place there is considerably less pollution?

Thats just flat out incorrect im afraid, billions more animals are killed in the meat and dairy industry than any mice and birds from farming soy or plants.... youve been watching joe rogan havent you? Not got anything against Joe, but he has some right idiots on his show. But il stress this point again veganism is about trying to exclude harm to animals as much as possible, not eliminating it.

The myth? lol So you disagree with the science then? Its a well known fact that animal agriculture is one of the leading causes of greenhouse gases.

We must change what we eat to solve the climate crisis, shows research

Even if fossil fuel emissions stopped immediately, emissions from the global food system alone could raise global temperatures by more than 1.5°C.

www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk

Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

Biggest analysis to date reveals huge footprint of livestock - it provides just 18% of calories but takes up 83% of farmland

www.theguardian.com