Why are you not vegan....

[Johno please?]

When I was in Lithuania I once picked a pig. Slaughtered it. Burnt all the hair off it and help cut it up. The worst part was the poop coming out when it got squeezed in a certain way.

The fact is that a pig would have never been born or lived had it not been for consumption. In that way it is better to live a life than not live one at all.

Thats how conditioned we are, you're not the first person here to think that a sentient creature living for a fraction of its actual lifespan, then being horribly killed, is better than it not existing in the first place.

Almond, soya, you must really hate the environment....

"More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh"

 

[Johno please?]

Yes, but their goal isn't to improve anything. It's to have a fight, to win and to force everyone to obey them.

It reminds me of that scene from Conan the Barbarian, which I've read was inspired by Genghis Khan. I don't know if it was, but it sounds like him. The best thing in life is to crush your enemies and to see them driven before you.

Not really, the goal was to raise awareness of animal abuse, because while we're all aware we're eating dead animals, the amount of people that say the same stuff I used to say is staggering.

"as long as they've had a good life, and its quick death im ok with it" Well, they don't have a good life or a quick death in most cases.

 

[Johno please?]

Trust me, we know. We want to do something about it and a lot of us are trying our best. We want to get closer to YOUR side of the hence but that is NEVER going to happen if we are constantly being pelted with insults and accusaions.

No one is going to agree with you while you call us names and you keep taking the moral high ground on your high horse. Instead of making friends, you make enemies.

I think maybe moon man threw an insult (sorry mate xD) but I haven't called anyone a murderer/cow rapist or a bad person.

I made the provocative but factual statement that if you buy meat and dairy you pay for animals to be abused.

Agreed. I do think @Johno please? Was well intended with his thread, though unfortunately as ever there's too much preachy behaviour and name calling in these sort of threads.

I'll be honest I'm less bothered about an animal being slaughtered as I am about animal welfare before they are slaughtered. Perhaps that's slightly contradictory but it's just a perspective. However poor quality meats do need to be addressed and quality in general need to be reviewed and improved. However there's a cost involved.

Yea I used to be like that as well, so much that I said right, im no longer eating factory farmed animals.

Well, that's great in theory until you go out to a restaurant, and realize you cant eat anything so had to have a halloumi burger, but then I never made the connection to the abuse happening to produce that either.

Which was silly anyway because since then ive been back to that place "Bills" it was, and they do a tasty plant based burger.

 

[Johno please?]

No it wasn't. The original title of the thread, combined with the contents of your first post demonstrates precisely what was said earlier by @Angilion ...


Your goal was NEVER to "raise awareness of animal abuse". it was to denigrate and belittle those who you see as "morally inferior"

Nope, I dont think people who eat meat are bad people, we've all been brought up this way so its been normalized. But I've gone over this time and time again if you're not getting it now you never will.

 

[Johno please?]

Before the edit didn't you say all meat eaters are murderers?

Nope. I titled it originally, "if you buy meat/dairy you pay for animal abuse"

 

[Johno please?]

I wonder if any vegans have cats as pets?. imo they shouldn't really as they are enabling more cruelty than most meat processing.

Owning a cat is enabling more cruelty than factory farming? You're supporting the 'meat processing' by owning a cat yes, but it has to eat meat.... but then we don't "need" to own cats I guess.

I'd never buy a cat/dog from a breeder.

 

[Johno please?]

If you buy petrol or gas you pay for babies to be raped is an equally "factual" statement at the moment, but I'm guessing you aren't going to be stopping anytime soon?

69 pages and we're still doing this one xD

I cycle to work, and use as little fuel as possible, do you not use petrol? Is this some bizarre connection to russia invading ukraine?

I'm assuming you buy meat/dairy/eggs and also petrol? So you cause far more harm than me.

 

[Johno please?]

1) Health - We have eaten meat for 2.6 million years - as a result we have been fundamentally shaped by meat in our diet. Despite the less educated/more propaganda based vegan press, we struggle to live healthy by ripping out 2.6m years of biological adaptation. It's not massive disaster, but we are just less healthy.

2) Enjoyment - we have likewise evolved unique pleasure centres for the taste of meat and I therefore enjoy meat

3) Animal Cognition - we fundamentally misunderstand animal cognition and grossly anthropomorphize them. They fundamentally can't think the same way we do.

4) Vegan substitute food is generally low quality and hyperprocessed

5) Nature is brutal - animals live brutal, short lives in the natural world. As indeed humans did until extremely recently. The best advice for vegans is to look at nature before they criticise farmers.


Then ask yourself, does this animal look like it's suffering like a human would be if this happened? Does this look wildly better than instant death with a bolt gun?

A degree is neuroscience is a brilliant way to remove all these doubts!

You could have at least skim read some of the pages, its like you've never heard any arguments against your position before.

1. Health, The evidence shows us we can live a perfectly healthy diet without meat/dairy
2. I guess if I really like the sound a dog makes when I kick it, you would be ok with that?
3. Its got nothing to do with their cognitive abilities but whether they can suffer or not, a mentally handicapped person might not understand the world around it or anything, but they still feel pain.
4. Id much rather eat processed plants than processed meat but that's not really what veganism is about anyway.
5. Yes nature is brutal, why would you want to replicate what a lion does? There's nothing "natural" about how we exploit and kill animals or drink another mammals milk.

 

[Johno please?]

Well I did skim read some, but failed to see anything compelling.

1. Absolutely we can survive - but very limited long range data and already a mounting evidence of impacts (most interestingly neurological impacts)
2. What are you dribbling about?? (Apart from proving point one) - I enjoy the taste of meat, not kicking dogs.
3. You neither understand suffering or pain - both are neuroscientific phenomena and thus are entirely cognitive. It's literally the meaning of the word and thus it's everything to do with cognitive ability. Ie if I literally have no developed hippocampus, then I cannot remember. If my Broca's region is undeveloped, then I can't talk. Therefore animals without humanlike frontal lobes (ie all of them), cannot possibly conceptualise and thus experience pain like we can. You do realise trees can transmit simple pain signals - assume you're going to stop eating plants too....?
4. Agree re processing, but much easier to eat an unprocessed normal diet than a vegan one which requires packing of lots of missing essential elements, oils, vitamins etc
5. Again I don't know where you invented this from - I didn't say anything about us being like lions, my point was that the average farm is vastly more humane than average nature and animals fear responses rank vastly lower in farms than in nature. Every single animal gets killed, exploited etc. Even drinking milk happens in nature - so it's all 'natural', even if for some quasi-religious reason you are considering humans not a part of nature.

Beyond all this, I think you're conflating different things - I'm all for better animal welfare and think we need to do more here, but literally 100% of animals are eaten in nature and the majority die in ways few humans would tolerate.

Good farms are huge improvements on nature in terms of animal welfare, so I'm quite happy to use their meat rather than leave it to the worms...

Well then you didn't read enough because your non original arguments have been made and rebutted already.

Limited data? ok, except for the studies done by oxford university and the academy of nutrition and dietetics and the millions of vegans who have been on plant based diets for decades.... I don't miss any essential nutrients, the only thing I cant get from plants is B12.

Yes and I enjoy the sound a dog makes when I kick it. Does that make it ok?

Do animals feel pain or not? of course they do, all the evidence says yes. Plants do not feel pain like an animal does they have no central nervous system or brain, I thought you were studying for a degree? Can you get a refund?

Not sure if you're aware but cows milk is not for humans, its for baby cows xD (probably explains why so many people cant handle the lactose)

"Good farms" Most people buy there meat from factory farmed animals, these "good farms" make up a tiny percentage, and regardless of how well theyre treated theyre still killed at a fraction of their life.

Sometimes yes, if people are careful about things like B12 deficiency etc. some obvious risks, especially with young children:

B12 is something we should all be aware of, just vegans that little bit more. One of my other halfs colleagues is B12 deficient, I said jokingly "is she vegan", because I knew she wasnt, could be a number of reasons though.

And like ive said already most people probably supplement B12 anyway due to a lot of animals not being raised outside on grass so needing the supplement themselves.

 

[Johno please?]

Haha this thread takes me back. I was eating a strict 'vegan' diet a few years ago, the same old stuff is being discussed here. I manged about four years before my health really suffered, I continued that long as I was way too dogmatic about it.
I started eating animal foods again to reverse my failing health.

We as Homo sapiens have been eating meat for millions of years it is our species specific diet, the science is in on this. The N14/15 isotope testing proves this unequivocally, heck we don't even need carbohydrates thanks to Gluconeogenesis.

Plants contain various toxins lectins, oxalates saponins etc but yet we are told that are healthy, Eat your meat people forget all the noise and get on with your life lol

You can be unhealthy eating plants or unhealthy eating meat. Yes were omnivores and can eat meat, but just because we can doesnt mean we have to.

Lets just say that being on a plant based diet is unhealthier, (I dont believe it is) I would still be vegan, thats how diabolical the meat and dairy industries are.

 

[Johno please?]

Eating just meat is not unhealthy that is our species specific diet, eating just plants on the other hand..
Funny how you comment on the health aspect of my comment but not on N14/15 isotope testing or Gluconeogenesis..

That's because I don't know anything about N14/15 isotope testing. Feel free to enlighten me....

Cmon, You know eating just meat is not our species specific diet, even our ancestors didn't live on just meat.

 

[Johno please?]

Have you read any of the literally thousands of journal entries by Oxford alone on this? (not sure why you're citing one university anyway, it's not Oxford's strongest discipline - plenty from Harvard, Cambridge and dozens of others) - to cite a few of the recent ones. Increased hormone disruption, lack of haemoglobin, reduction in omega 3, vitamin B12 deficiency, inhibited zinc absorption, carbohydrate over-concentration, increased risk of stroke, calcium deficiencies, high heavy metal intake. Vitamin D intake is usually 25% that of omnivores. It's also telling that in many of these studies the plant-based sources fail to have many of the health benefits (eg Omega 3 from plants doesn't have the impact that fish-based sources have). Most interesting from most of these studies is how centred they are on neurological impacts - given evolutionary theory posits that meat eating is what grew the pre-human brain - taking it away causes permanent neurological damage (if B12 deficiencies persist), increased stroke risk (general vegan diet), EPA/DHA deficiencies damage eye and brain function etc.

Don't get me wrong, being a vegan has advantages too (although these largely vanish when we retrench the data against historical trends - ie we've stopped eating as many grains, fruit and veg rather than we've started eating meat) - but every health service on the planet suggests fortified food, vitamin supplements and multiple workaround solutions for a vegan diet to have long term balance, which results in far too much processed food for my liking and it certainly isn't a 'natural' diet.


I have no idea where you're drawing this from - neuroscience has spent decades seeking to understand the concept of pain and still can't define, but it's great that you've solved it... At no point have I or any neuroscientist claimed animals don't feel pain - we've said the concept of pain is complex. At a first year neuroscience level 'pain' is measured through:
- nociception
- stress neurobiology
- neurotag/pain memory
- beliefs/previous memory
- cortical plasticity
- descending modulation
- neuroimmunity
- central sensitisation
- peripheral sensitisation

Then all the above have to play through the various centres of the brain to create a concept of pain.
Even at a human level this is illogical - hence Nobel Prize winners have observed that colonoscopies were deemed less 'painful' when a smaller probe was inserted into the patient's rectum after the larger one > ie clearly more pain inflicted, but less pain observed. When humans eat hot chillis they trigger pain receptors, despite absolutely no actual pain being inflicted on us (it's an odd miswiring of mammals, hence birds can eat the hottest chillis without any pain). Why is it you can't feel pain when adrenaline is rushing - hence a lot of wartime deaths are actually pretty painless (countless accounts of people's legs being ripped off and genuinely not realising/feeling pain, yet when you calm down it becomes agony). I can go on and on with examples, but this is only humans - so when statements 'animals feel pain' are made, it's wildly different to your anthropomorphised assumption.


My point is improve farms, don't stop meat - much like someone saying 'stop driving' is the solution to car accidents, rather than 'improve cars'

Anyway, enjoy the veg - I like having data on my side, after all.... 84% of vegetarians/vegans start eating meat again... so odds are with me...

Yes I have, have you? You cant make all those claims then provide no citations, but I do agree the evidence regarding nutrition does vary from source to source.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1906908116#supplementary-materials

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets - PubMed

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You're still dodging my question, if I derive pleasure from the sound a dog makes when I kick it, is that ok?

You're really over complicating this pain thing, do non human animals feel pain or not?

84%? heh, again citation needed. People that say this probably never actually went vegan in the first place they think its a "diet"

How to you 'improve' the unnecessary slaughter of sentient beings? Its not profitable that's why there's so much abuse, like pigs having their tails chopped off, castrated, then living inside for 5 months before being gassed with carbon dioxide.

 

[Johno please?]

Yet your suggestion was also opinions with no facts, anecdotal evidence based upon your tiny (relative to population) cluster of people close to you.

At that point it all just falls apart and comes down to what 1 person "feels" vs what other person "feels" and as such, become nothing more than an unquantifiable mess, you can make no valid assertion from it.

A significant point of note is the level of anthropomorphising which happens almost automatically, subconsciously, simply because we are by nature, empathic creatures (not actual sci-fi empath, more that we can often read / perceive the feelings / emotions of others by their body language etc..), prone to altruism (we would not have survived this long had this not been the case). The assumption that "lower levels of life" can interpret, perceive or even "feel" pain the way we do, the notion of "suffering" which is very much a mental construct. That they have a "will" or "desire" to live, vs pre-programmed pathways in the brain developed over millions of years of evolution which result in a response we think we recognize as something familiar to a human emotion.

The very notion of "sentience" and feeling pain vs nothing more than automated response to stimuli (nociception) triggering a certain behavioral response that was honed over generations through basic Darwinism is still a massive unknown to science in general and it is quite possible (warning:- opinion incoming) that we (as humans) may be the only creature on this planet that can truly "feel" pain and suffering the way we do and no other lifeform does, at which point it rather disrupts many (not all) of the pro-vegan arguments relating to the industrial farming of animals (Pain, suffering, brutal conditions etc..) - And don't misunderstand me, I am 100% for improving animal welfare in any way possible, I in no way advocate the mis-treatment of farm animals, nor inhumane methods of slaughter such as halal.

However I have to question the idea that people can come to an "informed opinion" (especially regarding the pain / suffering / sentience) when many of the things they are using as a foundation to their opinion are still entirely unknown, in some cases quite possibly unknowable (or at least untestable / unprovable), as such they end up constructing a "house of cards" with opinion formed based upon another opinion and another opinion. It ends up as nothing more than "feels" and only takes 1 of those "foundation" opinions to end up being incorrect and the whole house of cards collapses and you find you actually had formed a very uninformed opinion, but was actually deferring to "feels" over any serious, logical analysis

What youre saying is absurd, you only need to watch the documentary I posted, view slaughterhouse footage or pigs being "processed" as piglets.

We don't need some scientific paper to tell me that when I watch footage of pig having its tail chopped off and it squeals, or when a cow gets bolt gunned in the head a few times because it doesn't always work and it bellows, to know these animals obviously suffer and obviously feel pain.

 

[Johno please?]

Lawdy lawd,


I'm having a Tomahawk steak for lunch, what are you having? A bowl of lettuce?

You post a lot in here for someone that says they "dont care"

Going to a vegan/veggie burger place for a treat, ive never been but food looks alright.

 

[Johno please?]

I thoroughly enjoy posting in here though and will continue to do so as long as you're playing the "ehrmahgehrd poor animals" card.

You seem to think that a) anyone cares about your opinion and b) you stand a modicum of a chance of converting someone to veganism.

Tell you what - you get one single person to say they're converting as a result of this thread and I'll buy you a lottery ticket.

75 pages? People obviously care. Like someone else said, it was on page 2 and done with, then someone says dumb **** like "aNiMaLs dOnT feEl PaIn lIkE wE dO"

Not trying to convert, trying to make people think about their food choices and how it affects animals.

 

[Johno please?]

This is precisely the point I was making.
You are making multiple assumptions based upon anthropomorphisation of the piglet. You are seeing behaviours and reactions and attributing HUMAN feels, reactions and emotions to them.
You have absolutely 0 evidence that pigs feel pain or suffering in the same way human do, yet you persist in being adamant that YOU are right.~

You sound like a typical Brexit supporter. "We don't need experts or facts, I am sure (With 0 evidence or education in the field) that what I believe is correct and everyone else is wrong, despite having no evidence to support it"

lol, no, I know this because just like us, most non human animals have the ability to feel pain through pain receptors that tell the brain its being harmed. So a pig squeals when its tail is chopped off because what, it thinks its funny or something?

Its like trying to argue with a creationist or something

This thread and all your posts will accomplish absolutely nothing.

Just like yours then.

Keeps going on about how healthy vegan food is, posts a massive pile of salt-loaded processed food...

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given how we got pages and pages of "vEganIsM iS goOd fOr tha enVironMent" oh but driving and going on transatlantic flights is fine even if it's 8 times worse for the environment

You really struggle with this dont you, I never claimed vegan burgers were healthy and Ive said countless times "its BETTER for the environment compared to animal agriculture"

Unrelated to food but animal abuse wise... I only found out recently we're still testing on beagles :|

Whimpering dogs forced into cages on UK 'factory farm' ahead of lab experiments

WARNING - DISTRESSING IMAGES: EXCLUSIVE: Footage shows beagles being piled onto overcrowded trolleys and whimpering before being force fed chemicals for 90 days in what comedian Ricky Gervais called 'terrible cruelty'

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Johno please?]

That's the exact opposite of what has happened. A vegan has started this thread calling all omnivores "animal abusers", that is literally in the opening post. If we're supposed to "let it be" then perhaps the vegans should stop just making stuff up and quoting "science" that even the writers of said "science" have admitted they miscalculated, whilst telling people not to do things which are far less harmful the environment they profess to want to protect from "meat eaters" who actually harm the environment about 6-8 times less than the other things the vegans do.

lol. For about the 10th time I said, "if you buy meat/dairy then you pay for animal abuse"

 

[Johno please?]

I went veggie over a year ago and haven't regretted it. Not gone all the way vegan but may try in the future. I don't preach at others, I didn't make this change until 41 so why should I expect everyone else to change just because I have now?

It was a personal thing for me, the main driver being the cruelty and conditions the animals live in. I get this isn't all places but once you see the mega farms like in the US and the fact a pig has no space and can't even turn around... That's no life. There are thousands of videos showing the poor conditions, I don't want to be a part of that.

Secondly impact on the environment generally, less proven science I'm sure, and there are arguements about land being cleared for more veg crops which is bad but lesser of two evils maybe... I try and buy local and organic where I can.

Finally the disgusting state of most meat sold.in supermarkets.

Meat and fish is pumped full of all sorts of chemicals, including dyes, for example smoked salmon only looks like you think it should as it has been coloured, the same happens with chicken. I'm not a health freak or anything but the state of £3 packs of chicken breast in Morrisons... I'd rather go without.

I saw a guy on TV a while back, was a morning TV bit and they were going on at him for being vegan and his kids being vegan too and not giving them choice etc. He had a good response, said let's take your kids to an abattoir and then see if they still want to eat meat.

I was vege for 8 months before going vegan, its just that final step... cows are still brutally killed in the dairy industry and that's after all the artificial insemination and calfs being taken from their mothers.

I notice you say it isnt "all places" but most pigs have no room to move, never touch grass and get abused before being gassed at a few months old in this country as well.

And then theres the lovely egg industry.

Good advert, that got banned for some reason.

 

[Johno please?]

My kids have prepared rabbits and fish, they've seen a chicken running around one second, meat on their plate less than an hour later, they are completely fine with it, they love watching wildlife programs on the TV and so on. Obviously if the parents are squeamish about the natural world then the kids are going to be affected by that unnatural affliction too.

I've done work at an abattoir but you cant just phone up for a day trip so the kids haven't been yet, but we'll be keeping a pig or two soon as well as chickens and ducks so that's going to be no different really.

You can make anything abhorant seem normal with indoctrination, people taught to hate jews or kafir for example, just takes a bit of brainwashing from an early age.

I remeber seeing kids with severed heads when the syrian civil war was at its peak.

 

[Johno please?]

what a rather unpleasant thing to post. you're basically equating someone who has given their kids a balanced life view with antisemites, racists and folks cutting off peoples heads. utterly disgusting.

No, youve clearly not understood my post at all.

Imagine all the brainwashing required to psyche people up for midwifery, autopsies, clear-up of RTA's... abhorrent stuff seeing the facade stripped away?

You're a walking talking blob of meat. A food source while you're alive and even more so when you're dead for a myriad of creatures.

There's perfectly sane reasons to not eat meat.

Being "brainwashed" by an agenda of fomenting psychological distress over eating food suitable for the animal you are should not be one of them. It should be a rational decision.

Yea you would need to become desentised to that stuff to be able to do your job for sure, but thats all unfortunatley necessary, unlike paying for animals to be abused and killed or raising your children to do the same.