Why are you not vegan....

[Johno please?]

I think OP should change his name to "paying for animals to be abused and killed".

We get it, yes you said it's a fact, so many times, but we have made our peace with it, keep saying that won't make people feel bad, it comes across as rather crass and passive-aggressive which in turn make people want to argue in a way that is more tonally aggressive than it needed to be.

And by keep pushing this agenda, you actually force more animals to be abused and killed because more will be eaten as opposed to reduced meat consumption being the goal which will end less animals to be abused and killed. Which is what you want, to have less animals to be abused and killed.

If you want less animals to be abused and killed, push for reduced meat consumption. Pushing for veganism is HURTING your agenda. Especially the way you are going about it.

You're more than welcome to stop reading and posting raymond, but you wont will you.

I don't think starting a thread on veganism is going to harm more animals, seeing stuff online that went against my long held beliefs is what got me thinking about not eating meat in the first place.

 

[Johno please?]

The goal of raising animals is for food and useful animal products. Not sure what kind of meat you're looking at where the goal is to get in an abuse quota.

And yes, raising animals and then killing them is extremely necessary for the purposes of eating them and I'm pretty sure eating animals is something that is entirely correct for a human diet. You can live off vegetables alone. But you don't have to.

Its a shame I have to keep repeating myself but I will....we dont need to cause the suffering and death of animals that's my point, its a choice because there is an alternative.

Factory farmed animals which is where most people get their meat from, the animals suffer terribly, just watch 10 minutes of the documentary I posted in the op.

 

[Johno please?]

Repeating is a side effect of not caring what the other person said.

You don't need to exclude meat from your diet and restrict yourself to eating vegetables.

I've not seen you say anything other than a terrible attempt to sell your susceptibility to the sales pitch of empathising with food to the point of rejecting it.

I'm empathizing with animals, not food.

So out of our two choices, one causes very little harm, and the other causes the harm of many, more sentient beings, you chose the one that does the more harm?

 

[Johno please?]

This, as predicted is the same one line you have on repeat. I'm totally sure because I can copy the same reply from earlier.

You've dodged the question. If youre happy to chose the one that causes more suffering then fine, but at least admit it.

Raising and killing animals is not necessary to live a healthy life.

 

[Johno please?]

All the farmers I know (family friends and that kind of thing) absolutely adore their animals. They have special massaging beds for their cows and try to ensure that they live their best life.

I agree that factory farming is awful and refuse myself to buy the cheap meat but it is really heartening to see how much they love and care for their animals.

I grew up in the country so maybe I have a different attitude as life and death was just a part of living there.

I'm sure nearly every farmer will say this, their actions suggest otherwise though. While some animals will no doubt get a "nice" life, they still get needlessly sent to a slaughterhouse.

Reminds me of a post I saw on reddit, some people raised a lovely looking brown cow with huge horns for 10yrs, that no doubt trusted and liked his owners.... they then sent him to be killed, (sorry, 'processed' they called it) and asked for his horns back. You would think after 10yrs you would have some kind of attachment, but I guess they never really saw him as anything but a product.

 

[Johno please?]

"Raising and killing animals is not necessary to live a healthy life."

With a caveat that (which you always every single time, ignore)

1 - Everyone's lifestyle fits or suits it.
2 - Everyone's situation allows it.
3 - Everyone has the inclination to do it.
4 - Everyone has the resources - time, knowhow to read up and learn about it.
5 - Everyone' are actually smart enough to understand what you’ve read and apply it to the diet in order to make sure you are not making yourself ill.
6 - Everyone is medically suited to it.
7 - Everyone even want to do it.

Yes, I know your reply will be “so you are putting your life above an animal?” Yes, I am. Are you telling me you will save a puppy before a baby in a fire if you can only save one?

Remember those caveats before you ask “you too can live like me and follow my path to be a vegan”. Not everyone is like you.

Im not ignoring it, we've done this already... by about page 10, so why are you still repeating this babble? Youre the kind of person that has to have the last word in every arguemnt arn't you raymond xD

Nearly everyone on this forum can go vegan, if you have access to electronic devices and the internet, it shouldnt be an issue.

I'm going to add this to the OP because I only just found it, it might stop the same posts and the same arguments....

Arguments against veganism — Carnism Debunked

All the common arguments against veganism DEBUNKED.

www.carnismdebunked.com

 

[Johno please?]

As an aside, for the more passionate vegans do you have a similar issue with cars? Conscious there's hundreds of thousands of animals killed every week on the roads - guess similar argument holds, you don't HAVE to drive, it sure makes life easier/more enjoyable, but it's certainly not a necessity. Not winding you up, just genuinely curious about how you draw the line. Naturally you get to extreme Buddhists who paralyse their life and health trying not to hurt flies etc, but curious how to get to 'the line' yourselves.

Billions of land animals are killed for the meat/dairy/egg industrys, I think deaths from cars pales in comparison. But cars are also a necessity for a lot of people, (unlike eating meat) the last time I killed a pidgeon with my car was around 6yrs ago.

Asking for the cows horns back suggests to me that he actually really cared for him.

Otherwise why ask for them back at all?

Maybe he wanted to mount them in order to remember him by.

Oh yea, cared so much they sent him to be killed at around half his life expectancy.

Everyone can go vegan?

How do you know? You are not our doctor, you don't know how capable everyone is at cooking, you don't know if we are disable or able (I know that @robfosters cannot do certain things in the kitchen due to his illness). You don't know whether we have the resources and know-how or time to research, you don't know people. You are just ignoring my points again and deflect it with a link.

Stop being so arrogant and pretend that you do and make blanket statements like that. You are acting like one of those flat-earther or a text book religious advocate, read something online and think it must be true. There is no way a website call carnismdebunked is a medical website. If it's on the NHS.gov and perhaps I will have a read. I think that's fair. I will also accept any other official agency or academic papers that has been peer-reviewed.

Nice strawman Raymond, thats why I said "nearly everyone here" and not every single human.

Its not a medical site no, its got rebuttals to all the terrible arguments you keep making ad nauseam though.

The vegan diet

Find out how to be healthy on a vegan diet, including vegan sources of calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B12 and iron.

www.nhs.uk

 

[Johno please?]

You will get the opposite, you will get support if you ask for simply better welfare for animals and reduce animal consumption or use of leather etc.

Don't go for 100%, you need to do it little by little. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Keep pushing veganism, especially with the morality angle, you will get pushback from everyone. ps I have not eaten anything dairy, meat and my shoes today is not leather, my bag is made of cotton, 18 hours and counting...am I a vegan? No, but I am doing my best.

It was just a link from the NHS on diet, yes not scientific. I have linked the studies from oxford university and The Academy Of Nutrition and Dietetics many times.

While reducing meat/dairy consumption is a good first step, "asking for better animal welfare, but still eating meat" isnt my position so im not going to advocate for something I don't agree with am I.

And this is where I have to object. Cars are a lifestyle choice, exactly like eating meat. I'm guessing you own a car and thus the different standards for "necessity".

Edit: typo, err two!

I use my car very little, cycle to work/gym etc. The harm from people driving cars pales in comparison to animal agriculture.

 

[Johno please?]

Possibly so, but my point is that you are playing fast and loose with the language and logic behind your assertions. I wouldn't want you on my debating team.

Not really, i've been pretty clear from the start what veganism is, its got nothing to do with driving a car really.

I should have made my point clearer though... that driving a car causes hardly any harm to animals compared to animal agriculture, obviously the pollution is another matter.

Even the frogs get *******, shouldn't come as a surprise really... https://www.thedodo.com/in-the-wild/frog-farm-footage-china

 

[Johno please?]

Maybe eat some animal products and your brain will function correctly to understand the point the person is making.

I am still waiting for people like you to come back with how a person who eats only animal foods causes more harm when a whole family can get away with consuming 1-2 animals per year yet every day the food consumed by a vegan has gone through a process which has killed millions of insects etc. 2 animals vs millions very simple math and is FACTS.

This is the problem with you vegans you are so closed minded.

Do you even grow any of your own food I expect not and I was expect you don't go a buy it from a local farm.

If you want to be a vegtard that is your choice I have no issues with this but don't go spreading lies, pushing your agenda as if its how our species should live plus claims it is better for animals also the climate which all are BS.

Well done on one of the most uniformed posts yet, I wont even waste time typing anymore....

1. Difference between intentional and unintentional harm:

Vegans don't demand products that inherently involve violence (i.e. there are ways to source vegan foods without violence and exploitation, while non-vegans foods absolutely must involve violence and exploitation in some way).

2. Veganism minimises crop deaths:

While vegans absolutely should acknowledge that their lifestyles do cause harm, the solution to the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries). There are also a lot of myths that go around that suggest vegans are actually responsible for more animal deaths than meat eaters.

Plant-based foods are good for both health and the environment | University of Oxford

New analysis by researchers from the University of Oxford and the University of Minnesota has identified a range of ‘win-win’ foods that both improve human health and have a low impact on the environment.

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[Johno please?]

Good don't ever post again you are chatting 100% BS

Which vegan foods do not cause animal harm 0 you can keep coming up with all the excuses you want about not causing harm on purpose this could be said for a meat eater its required for a human to survive.

Again livestock does not require any crops why do you vegtards keep repeating this go and learn about real farming it is used as I have pointed out before because its a waste product not fit for humans.

Meat isn't required to live. Not involved in animal agriculture by any chance are you? I'm not wasting much time on you, I don't really like disingenuous people.

Feel free to post your own studies telling me how bad veganism is for the environment.

Are you that ignorant? Most soy for example, isn't consumed by us vegans btw, its used for other industry's, il let you figure which industrys those are...

But no, cows, pigs, lambs, chickens apparently "don't need any crops" imagine typing out such a blatant lie and expecting to get away with it.

 

[Johno please?]

Meat is for proper nutrition but if you want to be a person who doesn't develop correctly and has a terrible quality of life I would agree not required.

Look at all the data related to children and how the ones that have been forced to be vegan are having a lot of health/development issues.

I am not involved in animal agriculture myself.

Lets talk about soy and you are hinting at animals using it which again not required but yes it is an issue I would agree but human consumption is not low soy oil is second globally most used oil after palm.

Pigs will eat anything they are not your friend given the chance it would eat you and cows like the green stuff this is how my family raise them.

If all the animals lets say you listed must eat soy how would they survive in the wild which has none.

More babble. I should be struggling to live then considering ive not touched meat for nearly 10 months. So your family is involved in animal agriculture, It was obvious by the insults and lies.

Hahaha this is the best one, you think pigs are like lions? I've met, and petted many pigs, none have shown any aggression, they're like dogs, abuse them and they'll probably bite.

The animals we breed, abuse and kill don't exist in the wild

I'm not hinting, im telling you, its a fact...

Soy

Soy

wwf.panda.org

Drivers of Deforestation

The world loses 5 million hectares of forest each year. What activities are driving this?

ourworldindata.org

"More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh. The idea that foods often promoted as substitutes for meat and dairy – such as tofu and soy milk – are driving deforestation is a common misconception."

 

[Johno please?]

10 months are you serious keep continuing to post it shows with every one how you are so out of your depth.

I have petted a lion what does that mean nothing and pigs will eat anything you like to go on about animals yet you do not even understand them it's nothing to do with abuse it's nature.

The animals my family breed are grass fed only and yes they are bred safely this is not the case in wild again learn something about animals you are stuck in a fantasy land.

You don't know what facts are.

Your sources are again useless more cherry picking also look up the authors they are vegans so a very nice biased bit of info on the soy one (did you even read it anyway to make it simple one of the graphes shows 19.2% humans use not your claimed 7% this is form your own source and you cant get it right)

You are not understanding animals do not require soy the same as humans do not require it use your brain.

In its natural habitat? No, in a zoo.

You mean the cows your family raise. Pigs and chickens are not grass fed.

Ah good old appeal to nature fallacy, we don't need to eat animals to live. Again the animals we raise, abuse and kill don't exist in nature, so if anything its unnatural.

LOL so even if i'm wrong (im not, and you've provided no citation for any claim) your stat still supports my point, so thanks.

 

[Johno please?]

I don't think you can "murder" an animal; the term specifically relates to humans.
Actually, I think the same goes for oppression.

Yea that was a copy and paste cos I bored of repeating myself.

I do prefer the term "killed" but if someone wants to say "murdered" its still accurate enough, I mean, these animals we kill are a "someone" not a "something".

 

[Johno please?]

oh yippee, this thread is back

bEiNg vEgAn iS eXpEnSiVe - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ve-asda-security-tagging-butter-b1010911.html

 

[Johno please?]

Chicken, beef and bacon....there are zero substances that can match the real taste. The veggie substitutions are ok but you can't beat the taste.

All my meat comes from the butchers within 10 miles of the house, works out cheaper than the supermarket and tastes better.

Well done, your abused, dead animal has traveled slightly less distance.

I really like the sound a dog makes when I kick it, kicking a pillow just isnt the same.

 

[Johno please?]

Bit weird... The ones I eat probably aren't mistreated and probably wouldn't like to be beaten, maybe wouldn't like to be eaten but they aren't aware.

haha, wow the ignorance, maybe watch the documentary in the OP.

So what farm does your meat come from?

Im gonna have a bit of street dog tonight myself....

 

[Johno please?]

Why are you kicking dogs?

I told you, I really enjoy the sound they make when kicked, personal choice isnt it.

 

[Johno please?]

And I thought vegans were supposed to be the triggered ones, I get it though, being a hypocrite isnt a nice feeling....

Im happy for it to be closed actually, the endless zero thought out posts of "i like bacon tho" are pretty cringe.

 

[Johno please?]

The irony is that because this is GD, trying to put humour into a serious subject is par for the course.

Except the humour - "I had a bacon sarnies" is seen by the militant vegan as some provocation.

The reason this thread is in GD? Because OP's initial original post/title was baiting meat-eaters, to provocating a response, rather than a sensible discussion.

Just lock this thread now, it's only a vehicle for the OP to keep calling other people abusers of animals...which does nothing but get people to eat another bacon sarnie.

Oh look Raymonds back and is repeating the same thing ive refuted about 4 times xD

Heh, So posting pictures of steak or "bacon tho" is a rational argument is it? It's purpose is to provoke you know it as much as I do. Luckily im not easily offended and up till now have completley ignored those kinds of posts.

Somewhere between the militant strawman vegan arguments and the 'I had a bacon sarnie' edgelords is the scope for a decent discussion on the topic, however this is GD, what else did we expect.

No strawmanning from me, just facts that people dont want to hear, eating meat is like a religion, one I'm glad to have left.