Why are you not vegan....

[Johno please?]

Still sticking with the hillier than thou attitude I see.

You are NOT getting it, it's not about REPLACING something with another. People don't replace it because of their economic status, they CAN NOT replace it. The fact that you just say "replace it with that", shows your arrogance and ignorance.

It's not about what they eat, it's about what they can get.

Ive already said, I don't expect everyone in the entire world to go vegan, I see no reason why working class people in hong kong cant be vegan though, they have access to some basic vegetables surely?

Also, Veganism is a new word but the concept isn't even a western idea, other cultures (ancient Indian and west asian) cut out meat probably long before we did.

A quick google suggests there's a growing trend of cutting out meat in hong kong as well which is good to hear.

...Like I said I am against the big factories that don't treat animals in the right way as Animal welfare matters. But that doesnt make all meat eating wrong.


My hypothetical to you. If I have a pet pig that I looked after and treated the best I could then after years it dies of natural reasons. Due to emotional ties I wouldn't eat it myself but what would be wrong giving it to my local farmer to use for meat for his family who are on hard times and struggling to afford to eat. The animal didn't suffer, the body is not being wasted. Its a positive outcome from what is a negative event of a pet being dead. Why would this be wrong? What matters to me is where the meat comes from instead of saying all meat eating is bad. One does not have to follow veganism to reduce harm to animals. In this case one could still eat meat and still be following veganism from the point of view of trying to stop and reduce harm to animals. As the eating meat in this case is not causing any harm.

Cool, so you're against the majority of animal agriculture then Because most farmed animals are certainly not treated well.

If your pig lives to old age, dies out in a field, naturally? I would have no qualms about someone eating it.... would I eat it personally? probably not, just because I don't need or would want to.

Its also a well known fact that vegetarian agriculture like rice is one of the leading causes of greenhouse gases and the methane is more than 30 times as potent as carbon dioxide. If you scale up the size of the Vegetarian agriculture to replace the animal agriculture then the total amount of greenhouse gas can get worse and the type of greenhouse gas produced is worse.

Instead of looking at the total size of the animal agriculture against the size of the vegetarian agriculture. Look up say how much greenhouse gases is produced to feed say 10million people via animal agriculture v 10million via vegetarian agriculture. Once you scale up the vegetarian agriculture to feed mass amount of people you get runaway major greenhouse gas problems far worse then the current animal agriculture industry.

Rice farming up to twice as bad for climate change as previously thought, study reveals

Levels of overlooked greenhouse gas are up to 45 times higher in fields that are only flooded intermittently

www.independent.co.uk

Cant read the article its paywalled. But fair enough I guess, except not only vegans eat rice You would also have to take into account the amount of plants we currently feed all the animals, that would obviously gradually be reduced thus saving emisions, which is probably why the oxford study says going plant based is better for the planet.

 

[Johno please?]

Is it just me or are vegans just the anti vaxers of the dietary World? There is zero evidence to say that veganism is sustainable long term for the body. Any diet that requires supplementation is not species appropriate or sustainable. That said there is zero evidence of any diet being sustainable long term because they can't lock clones up in labs for their entire lives for various obvious reasons.

I happen to know several ex vegans quite well who've between 6 and 14 years on that lifestyle under their belts. They've switched from vegan, due to various health issues like losing their menstrual cycle and organ failure. They're now on Carnivore and doing much better health wise with most if not all seeing their health conditions go into remission. Health generally across the board is a lot better.

I mean, this is babble mate, A study by nutritionists has said its healthy for every stage of life. https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nu...s-publishes-stance-vegan-and-vegetarian-diets

Regardless this isn't what veganism is about, il copy and paste again...

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose"

Can you and all these "ex vegans" even go to the toilet on that diet?

 

[Johno please?]

I used to work with a guy who was a vegan, he'd spend ages banging on about it to me and everytime I pointed out the hypocrisy of the fact that he was wearing a leather belt and had leather in his shoes , he'd get very angry and defensive.

He should have said, "****, you're right, thanks for pointing that out to me" I find that a bit weird that he bothered to go vegan but didnt consider leather, it was the next thing I thought about after stopping eating dairy.

What a surprise, vegan finds pro vegan article lol If you think that the current pro vegan anti meat agenda actually has anything to do with improving health you are sorely mistaken. It's all about profits, through these ultra processed foods. Thanks but no thanks.

Oh we go to the toilet far better than Vegans do, for starters because our crap doesn't come out of our mouths! But also as it turns out the body doesn't need fibre. Fat is the natural lubricant of the bowel, I go roughly once a day or every other day. I guarantee there's a lot less volume because what we eat is more bioavailable and we're not dumping mountains of indigestible crud.

Uhh, the 'The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics' who did the study isn't "pro vegan" at all.

Yea, rice, legumes, beans, bread, potatoes, nuts & seeds and vegetables are sooooo ultra processed.

Cool, Well enjoy your bowel cancer I guess

New research says even moderate red and processed meat eaters at risk of bowel cancer

People who eat red and processed meat within department of health guidelines are still at increased risk of bowel cancer, according to a study published today.

www.bowelcanceruk.org.uk

 

[Johno please?]

What an absolutely vile and repugnant thing to say to someone. I wish I could say I'm the least bit surprised but you vegans are all the same. It was meant tongue and cheek earlier when I said that vegans are the antivaxers of the dietary World but if looks like a cabbage and smells like one, well...

There is zero causation between bowel cancer and red meat? When did

Just because we can eat something, doesn't mean we should.

Oh calm down, did I wish cancer on you? No, it was a joke because to anyone with a functioning brain knows a "carnivore diet" is unhealthy and increases your risk of cancer. Its just a fact, a fact youre happy to ignore though.

No you're right it wont change my mind, you know what changes my mind? EVIDENCE.

Here's yet another study, i've provided evidence for my claims, have you? Just babble about talking to a botanist, yea if I want nutrition advice il talk to a botanist xD

Nutritional Update for Physicians: Plant-Based Diets - PMC

Physicians are becoming more involved in helping their patients adopt healthier lifestyles. Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet (which encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You're correct on one thing though, just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should i'm glad we agree. Yes we evolved eating some meat but I doubt the humans of 150,000yrs ago ate meat even 2 times a day let alone the amount we now consume, I think I need to say it again.... Veganism isnt even about nutrition, its just a bonus that its also healthy.

And this is the problem, right here.
If you need to take supplements to stay alive (Hello B12 deficiency leading to anemia and eventually death) Then you're not really eating a balanced diet are you?

...at some point you really have to question why you would put the life of an animal above the lives of multiple humans?

If people really want to make an impact and are "horrified" at the notion of livestock / slaughter, perhaps they should turn their attention to the more brutal / gruesome methods of animal treatment and slaughter practiced by other countries / religions (I'm looking at you Halal meat!) before getting all preachy to Brits about eating meat.

Chances are you're supplementing B12, you just don't know it... This is obviously a pro vegan site but feel free to do your own research. https://www.surgeactivism.org/b12ahdb

I'm also not putting any peoples lives above animals

While I agree Halal is 'worse', I actually stopped eating halal years ago, but a little bit of research shows our normal conditions and slaughter are not much better, the life of your average chicken or pig in this country is one of misery and suffering so its not much of an argument to point fingers at other countries.

I don't get it.

Btw, unless you didn't read it, the original title and intent of OP is calling people who eat meat animal abuser. The tone he set out originally is to attack people.

Its clear from your posts that you don't get it.

I never called meat eaters animal abusers, I said you PAY for animals to be abused by eating meat and dairy.

 

[Johno please?]

Militant vegans can go in the bin along with the race and gender extremists. they're all just the modern form of religious loons!

I don't subscribe to identity politics or that non sense, I guess im a 'militant' vegan in the same way im a militant atheist.

 

[Johno please?]

Selective fact-ing.
Western, heavily processed diets featuring heavily processed meats increase your risk of cancer - the studies always pitch this up against, and I quote your link, whole food plant based diets with limited potatoes rice etc.

So it isn't a meat diet Vs a vegan diet, it's a processed food diet Vs a whole food diet.
People giving up meat to just switch to fake-meat vegan products from the supermarket are doing absolutely zero to benefit their health as they are still just consuming heavily processed foods which carry exactly the alsame health risks - a fake sausage roll is just as unhealthy as a pork sausage roll.

So your links just prove that people should eat less processed food, not that they should give up meat entirely.

What you've done is misspelled "meat" when what you actually meant to tell people to give up is "cake".

Well yea most people wont want live on beyond burgers just like you wouldnt want to live on beef burgers or steak.

When you read that back, do you see how much of a smug **** you come across as? It's easier to say I hope we all get bowel cancer. Who cares. ?

I mean this discussion must be fun for you being in a minority, you must thrive on conflict, enjoy arguing to even bother. Yy6ou certainly are not like this in reality I get that, venting/preahing here gives you a buzz. People take stuff online to a much Futher degree.
Whatever it is I hope most just appreciate it as a big wind up. It has madee laugh so it is good.

Btw Increased chance of cancer isn't really some kind of scare either unless you are a hypochondriac. Literally everything these days is carcinogenic isn't it?

I dunno? Keep up the good fight!
As long as new contenders keep coming in we can keep repeating the same things ad infinitum. Like me...

Yea I get it may have come across badly, it was just meant as a dark joke, my mum died of cancer so obviously wouldn't wish it on anyone.

What the reactions have shown me is really how conditioned we are when it comes to certain animals, society says "love these animals, treat them well", "but don't worry about those, theyre just food" we're also very disconnected from the processes and conditions these animals live in.

How are getting on converting all the those subscribers of faith?

Not great, theres billions of em.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Don't eat much meat anyway (maybe 2 or 3 times a week so it wouldn't be a huge change but I do enjoy eggs so not sure veganism would work.

My main reason is probably treatment of livestock etc rather than health reasons, plus perhaps moving to 'living with' rather than 'eating' other living things.

Sounds like you could easily go vegetarian, theres a good youtuber/activist called "earthling ed" he does some good debates with people.

Even watching this video is now incredibly cruel to me where as years ago i may have shrugged, cows are very maternal animals....

I guess a meat eating animal lover is an oxymoron of sorts ,I love my dog and cat but pigs and cows can be stunned ,killed and sliced up for my tea

Maybe you should question why it is you think that way, cognitive dissonance I think.

 

[Johno please?]

Vegan attacking a vegan ,now I am confused ,
My comment is obviously a nod to the hypocrisy of meat eaters

lol soz, trying to reply to so many messages has fried my brain.

That's a nonsense reply, you're the one claiming a meat based diet causes cancer, it doesn't, a processed food based diet causes cancer increases the risk of cancer. People eating processed food switching to veganism aren't suddenly going to go from eating lots of processed food to just eating whole foods, in fact anyone with a diet that puts them at risk of cancer can reduce that risk by cutting out processed food, the "veganism is healthy" claim is nonsense.

If I go on the supermarket website and go to the "vegan food" section, it's is ALL highly processed "meat alternative" stuff that's no better, or in most cases more loaded with salt and sugar than the meat equivalent. And when you are trying to encourage meat eaters to go vegan, that's exactly what they'll do.

I actually hadn't realised this, so thank you, because I can now stop buying processed food and go back to buying real meat knowing it will be healthier.

I said the "carnivore diet" will increase your risk of cancer due to the amount of red and processed meats I assume would be a part of it (not to mention the lack of other vitamins etc), and that a plant based one is healthier.

But my claim is certainly not non sense, a plant based diet is generally healthier, backed up with evidence.

"veganism is healthy" - you can be an unhealthy vegan sure, I see what youre saying I guess.

 

[Johno please?]

Well this thread has gone as expected, firstly the vegans try to tug at the heartstrings 'cows are pets too', then it's onto you don't know how they're killed 'it's inhumane', then we've moved onto 'you are all gonna get cancer eating red meat, haha. Veganism is healthier'. At every turn they've been constantly debunked with facts yet they still keep trying, never change lads.

Not one single person has posted any articles or studies that you're average western diet or carnivore diet is healthier than a plant based one, unlike the oxford study and academy of nutrition and dietetics ones that I provided.

But il say it again because people like you are still not getting it, veganism isnt even about nutrition, its about not wanting to pay for animals to be abused and killed for food, clothing or sport.

Wow, you soy boys really are offensive, obtuse and deluded. If veganism is so healthy, why do your lot on a long enough time line always end up looking like you're dying without huge amounts of supplementation? Let's not forget Heroine and cigarettes are technically vegan. Now, let's talk about those supplements. Do you even realise what a lot of those ingredients actually are?

After 5 years...

There's a lot of images I simply refuse to share because of there highly distressing nature, such as severely malnourished babies who've been hospitalised by their monstrous vegan zealot parents. But hey, if it's so healthy why can't kids do it? But I bet I'm just making that one up right? Or I'm misunderstanding something. Sorry, but no.

What about this?
https://metro.co.uk/2016/11/16/one-...shed-6261473/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.link

or this?

https://youtu.be/c_M71nUdLwQ

What about the fact that any studies linking meat to cancer are done with processed meats, or that studies done with rats have been done after rats have been injected with carcinogens to induce cancer? They did this in almost all studies cited by the WHO.

Not convinced? (I know you won't be, it doesn't fit your deluded narrative so must be fake news)

https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/glioblastome multiforme_case report_38-month long_progression-free survival?fbclid=IwAR0rlNOXAPXF1F4MqIwIMuIR6Ml3XwQOZLhLeJoWjNBo4Q_IQusl7oalNuA

or this?

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_as_a_stand_alone_therapy_in_cancer?fbclid=IwAR3fR92kr9OSpaLcjTePeawN_i6WUhyukkgkdPkZQya2ynhZTUe2xcfMhJ0&h=AT3I6GLN7j4MJE8rmyAPOGcjygJFFjW9QCFZeNPT6ch8kMBQFgVZgRyUGJwLaHfTv6cxfne1dOs07-A_nEYvcqWJ69OpxHFF4adGibUfmuvpN8jT0XX4wvafGkhy5JR1-4gw

I could do this all day...

https://youtu.be/DvUYZJPtNG0

But, hey lets forget about all that pesky evidence that disproves your assertions and the countless other sources I could provide that go against the vegan agenda.

Lets forget basic human physiology and evolution over millions of years. Let's ignore the science of botany as just babble. That's all wrong and you vegans have it right? Those who fully functioning brains know veganism is right? Yay another insult... Then why is it that every cell in the body requires nutrients only found in animal based food? Including the brain.

But no, Fact is eating meat doesn't cause cancer. Eating carcinogens (you eat plenty of those, buddy) and highly processed food causes cancers.

But, hey according to you I'm definitely going to die horribly despite the fact I feel better than I've ever done. But seriously the offer still stands, you post your blood results and I'll post mine.

Well done, youve posted pictures of people who are not taking in enough calories xD "veganism debunked"!!!111

A video from "garland farms" holy **** that'll be totally unbiased, they have to lie, their income relies on it. And one from a doctor? Again not a nutritionist. You should have posted this article....

Is red meat back on the menu?

A controversial study says the evidence of health risks is so poor, people should keep on eating it.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't know why you're so concerned with supplements, millions of people take them, multivitamins or protein powders, you almost certainly supplement B12, you just don't know it.

One in 4 vegetarians could be malnourished? Yea they could be, so could people who meat, and so could vegans if you're not eating right or have uptake problems. So what are you on about, is this meant to be evidence than veganism is unhealthy?

The vegan agenda is we don't want to harm animals. But because there's literally is no argument to counter that it always gets deflected to diet and nutrition. Your convinced eating the 'carnivore diet' has somehow cured you of something, despite you even saying yourself, eating a plant based diet could have had the same results. But hey maybe it has, still doesn't mean the "carnivore diet" is healthy.

I don't have any blood results as I have no health concerns, if something crops up il let you know.

"Then why is it that every cell in the body requires nutrients only found in animal based food? Including the brain." LOL citation needed.

Some malnourished vegans for you...

 

[Johno please?]

There's a reason though that there wasn't vegan options back in the day, veganism makes zero sense. It's a lifestyle that is not sustainable and is not healthy by itself. Any diet that requires supplementation is not healthy by its definition.

Why do vegans initially see health improvements, because they give up a lot more than just meat. The reduction of heavily processed foods is going to have a huge benefit to people's health. Yet as a general rule they blame the meat.

Once people see the long term effects of veganism which may take decades, just like smoking it will stop being recommended for health.

The many studies done on a plant based diet would disagree with you, do you think if you keep saying its "unhealthy and not sustainable" that its going to become true or something?

So all the vegans that have been on a plant based diet for decades are some sort of living miracles then? Out of everyone posting here, you talk the most crap xD

Maybe primarily city folk will never understand that, but that's the way it is and has been for millennia. The alternative is cattle, sheep, chickens, goats and so on going extinct, as if nobody is farming them then nobody is protecting them from foxes, dogs and diseases such as TB.

We kill badgers because they threaten the money involved in farming, and don't forget these animals only exist because weve bred them this way.

Would you rather your tail chopped off, teeth "trimmed" then live inside for 4months never seeing grass only to be gassed to death? Or just not exist?

Second quote Veganism is an ideology correct it has nothing to do with human health but the whole protecting animals from abuse/killer arguments doesn't work now people will ask why it's simple a vegan being alive is causing harm to animals the only way to help them is for you to die.

Now I know people will say this is extreme but it's not how can you live the vegan way without insects or animals you can't take a look at how food is produced and this is when you look into other areas not nutrition.

Third quote this straight away shows you know 0 on the subject of nutrition using calories as an argument maybe you should learn what a "calorie" is before putting out a claim like this.

Fourth quote If you are eating a correct diet why would you need to supplement? If millions of people drink own urine it's fine as well is it? this argument makes 0 sense and people take all these because they have been tricked to do so.

Fifth quote answered already and already countered it another one you are incorrect on.

I would like to point out I do have a qualification in nutrition and it is meaningless also I have family members who run a farm.

Closing point the pictures you posted are useless for a start the first one is the person known as Vegan Gains (Richard Burgess) who you can be looked up easily and see he has health issues plus is taking juice.

That same guy has claimed to know science like yourself yet can't even understand basics also people who are trained in the field have called him out many times the same with all you vegans yet you run away.

I'm well aware of who he is and yes hes a bit of a loon. I posted studies from legit sources to counter claims that living on a plant based diet is "unhealthy" that's all.

Because B12 comes from bacteria in the ground or unsanitized water which are consumed by the animals. Also many meat eaters also need B12 supplements, there was a guy talking about it in this very thread. Anyone who eats cereals will also be supplementing B12. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

I posted the pictures of normal looking people on plant based diets because Vidar posted extremely thin people claiming that's vegans will end up like. When in fact they're just people who are not eating enough food.

And finally, yea we all cause harm by just existing, its about causing the least harm we can and thats why I went vegan.

 

[Johno please?]

Incorrect there is not one single valid study which shows as you claim and you can keep repeating the words over and over again this wont change.

I noticed when it comes to Vegans they always select the extreme cases not how it really is and have you ever even visited or worked on a farm I already know the answer nope.

Mass factory farming I don't agree with by the way this is a point I would agree with.

None of your studies are legit.

People that consume only animals do not require any supplements again showing your lack of knowledge in the area.

Cereals are not required in the human diet and do you even understand why they are fortified with vitamins do the research.

Not sure what the point of that link was and it has a fair bit of misinformation in it RDA are made up they are not science based yet that place claims otherwise citing FDA yes they are a creditable source (not)

The pictures are waste of time you don't know these people and have not followed them around for years they claimed to be say vegan only and for every one person who looks healthy others could pull up 100's of unhealthy ones.

Being a vegan does not cause less harm FACT coming from a person understands farming has family running a farm the whole family can live of 3 animals per year one of your crop fields kills millions of insects and other pest control required.

I am not even going to get into the damage it does to environment etc.

You are in a fantasy land if you really cared about animals you either do not continue to live or you have your own farm (I bet you do not even grow any of your own food)

Ive debunked most of these points earlier in the thread, so im not doing them all again.

The apparently non valid studies and articles -

Veggie-based diets could save 8 million lives by 2050 and cut global warming | University of Oxford

A global switch to diets that rely less on meat and more on fruit and vegetables could save up to 8 million lives by 2050, reduce greenhouse gas emissions by two thirds, and lead to healthcare-related savings. It could also avoid climate-related damages of $1.5 trillion (US), Oxford Martin...

www.ox.ac.uk

Balanced plant-based diets improve our health and the health of the planet | University of Oxford

Well-balanced and predominantly plant-based diets can lead to improved nutrient levels, reduce premature deaths from chronic diseases by more than 20%, and lower greenhouse gas emissions, fertilizer application, and cropland and freshwater use, globally and in most regions, a new study reports.

www.ox.ac.uk

British Dietetic Association confirms well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living in people of all ages

www.bda.uk.com

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets - PubMed

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I grew up near a dairy farm and visited it many times as a child, my neighbour never told me that the calfs were taken away from their mothers repeatably, and forcefully impregnated and then ultimately killed though, funny that eh.

Your bias is really obvious btw, because you're involved in farming. So you care about the insects but not cows, pigs and chickens? The difference is we need to eat plants to survive, we don't need to eat meat, veganism is not meant to eliminate harm.

The damage done to the environment from feeding, raising and killing billions of animals a year is far worse than from growing plants.

None of your arguments are original, even the 'JuSt KilL YoUrSeLf' line has been done to death, I wont kill myself for the same reasons you wont.

Wife’s a vegan. Absolute pita shopping with her half the time as she studies the ingredients labels religiously. Sod that. Half the vegan stuff is so overpriced obviously to take advantage of the fact that they’ll eat any damn thing.

I’m a meat eater because I like meat. My parents are Fijians - Fijians eat their meats and fishies. Whilst I’m born here in the Uk, I’ll never go through the hell that my wife goes through.

Does she not eat much whole foods then?

"hell" haha, Theres an adjustment period like any lifestyle change, but shopping being vegan is no harder, its probably harder because youre on two different diets maybe I dunno.

Honestly I can understand that people don't want to see animals needlessly suffer and be mistreated. You'd have to be a psychopath not to care about that. But there's a vast difference between professional slaughtering and abusive practices like halal.

Seriously I don't have the time to keep having the same arguments only for you to keep ignoring the studies I post. Halal slaughter is bad yes, but so is the very short life and death of your average chicken and pig.

 

[Johno please?]

Showing again you know nothing about farming calfs and mothers do not care about each other if again you had any experience or even spoke to people that know the industry they will show you this even explain but it doesn't matter in your mind you live in fantasy land no the real reality.

Utterly shameless lying, but not surprising this is exactly what the meat and dairy industry have been doing for decades to try and hide the truth from people.

Anyone who has any interest in the truth can literally google this for themselves to the see the countless video evidence of "cows not caring about each other"

 

[Johno please?]

Why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist? Just eat what you want but try to eat healthy. It’s my belief that we should eat both meat and veg to get the right vitamins and minerals. The odd animal will die, but that’s life. I don’t think they wanted us to keep them as pets anyway

'The odd animal', haha just billions a year that live horrible short lives.

Its like you think vegans stop eating animals just for fun or something.

 

[Johno please?]

The farm you was on may well have been like this this is not general practice in UK and when was this about 30 years ago?

Seriously, is lying just something you do naturally or is it learned? You cant be this ignorant?

Even the RSPCA who don't give much of a crap about "livestock" debunk this.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/pigs/farming - "Only 3% of pigs will spend their entire lives outdoors"
https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/pigs/keyissues - then after all this, they're gassed with carbon dioxide for so called 'stunning'.

 

[Johno please?]

Laughable accusing others of telling lies yet you can not backup any of your claims.

Again showing how uneducated you are you do not even understand how and who runs the food industry.

Counter argument is google so that has all the answers science and people who have skill sets doing the living for decades know nothing but google does the same with history if google has an alt version that is only correct.

I knew vegans are mentally challenged due to the poor nutrition but seriously please eat some eggs or a bit of meat you need help.



Already given you facts use your tool google if you must remember this tells the truth it has an answer of 1 cow can feed a whole family for a year.

So who is it killing billions you plant eaters remember all those insects and other animals which are wiped out to protect crops.



Pigs living inside what is your point?

Would you like them to be allowed to roam the world and be wiped out.

Humans are spending a lot of time indoors as well.

RSPCA links whats the point? You are a typical vegan you have no case so you try to flash around this place shows this or that place as if they have any standing or meaning they don't provide "FACTS" and "SCIENCE" none of those links provide a single case it's all words the same with all the claimed studies you people keep bringing up.

Do you have any pets?

Oh right you want evidence....

but no, they obviously don't care about their young.

Billions more animals are killed in the meat/dairy & egg industries, you think a mouse or bird will sit and wait to be killed by a loud tractor? But this is besides the point really because most crops grown are still fed to animals.

So ultimately if you care about insects and mice being killed (you don't) you should still be vegan.

Drivers of Deforestation

The world loses 5 million hectares of forest each year. What activities are driving this?

ourworldindata.org

"pigs living inside" yea thats the point I was making, did you even read what they do to the pigs "inside"?

A single case? no, they describe industry standard practices here in the UK.

"Humans are spending a lot of time indoors", lol I don't even know what this point is, we have a choice, the animals we breed don't get a say in it.

I've not followed the evolution of johno's argument but has he been arguing Veganism from an environmental/CO2 POV? As to start with it was all about just animal welfare / not killing animals.

I know I mentioned early on about the environmental effects, though good points have been made about the increase from plant based and rice farming that would happen if it expanded to fill the gap

Exactly, thanks, at least someones gets it.

Also, most plants are grown for what.... animal feed. We eat a tiny percentage of it.

I have no kids, cycle to work, not materialistic at all, and don't consume animal products, I think my carbon footprint is pretty damn low.

 

[Johno please?]

So many of the arguments in favor of change revolve around the use of emotive imagery and wording, picking only the worst-of-the-worst (often not even from this country) in an attempt to back-up their message. Use of terms such as "murder" to attempt to illicit an emotional response from a person, rather than a well thought out, considered response from the more reasoned areas of the brain, less driven by emotion and reaction to "shocking" images etc.. This is the problem. Could you imagine if every EV owner went around berating and belittling ICE drivers the way many vegans do towards meat-eaters?

Instead look at the "message" being used to encourage people to switch. Free (or super cheap) charging... Road tax discounts etc... Incentives and positive messages, not belittlement and accusations of murder.

The documentary I posted and things ive spoken about that happen to animals, all happen in UK farms. It's a bit of a myth that terrible conditions for farmed animals is an overseas problem.

Infact, I used to say exactly the same things until I found out what conditions were like.

I haven't accused anyone of murder, but if you buy meat and dairy you do pay for animal abuse unfortunately..... If only we could garner the same reaction from people to cows/pigs and chickens like when Kurt Zouma kicked his cat.

 

[Johno please?]

Is it your absolute opinion that man made polymers are better for the world than organic materials made from animals?

Because I'd argue that if we're talking bigger picture, animals that are treated well and killed humanely are the better choice than polluting the world with chemical extraction and the products it enables?

How do you kill something "humanely", like minimal suffering I guess you would say?

To me that would be putting an animal to sleep like when you get a pet put down, that's humane. What we do to farmed animals is the opposite of that, would you want your pet put down at a slaughterhouse?

If we didn’t eat them, the world would be full of animals running amok and sh****** all over the place. What do we do then? Use it for fertiliser for your veg patch?

We only breed them for the sole purpose of food/clothing so no they wouldnt be running amok xD. I guess we would have to think of some kind of rewilding, I dunno, I don't have all the answers.

 

[Johno please?]

Why it has to be the extreme of no meat I don't really understand.....

The animal cruetly aspect, if every cow/pig/chicken lived their full life term and died of natural causes I wouldnt have a problem with eating them.

 

[Johno please?]

Wild animals rarely live "their full life term", usually dying of disease, injury or from being killed by other animals. And you certainly should have a problem with eating carrion even if it didn't die of disease. Humans are most definitely not physiologically adapted to doing so.

That they do, but im not talking about wild animals, im talking about animals we raise for a few months (or weeks for chickens) then kill.

The pigs wouldn't exist plain and simple. There is no reason to rear a pig except for its meat. Having one as a pet is simply not feasible to 99% of home owners either.

Cows at least offer milk and chickens eggs.

uh huh, "offer" heh, you mean the milk meant for the baby cows that we take.

 

[Johno please?]

Article first published in the telegraph..

https://thebritishclub.co.uk/the-great-vegan-diet-con/

Interesting article and there's some debate to be had for sure, however....

The article is a bit of a straw man, the idea that all vegan food is supposed to be healthy, and going vegan will stop climate change on its own. You can be healthy or unhealthy on both a plant based diet and one that includes meat, It depends what you eat.

As for the environment, She bangs on about emissions, but makes no mention of the other impacts of animal agriculture on the environment, like water pollution, air pollution, deforestation, the land and resource usage required for meat and dairy.

She also conveniently omits soy production and says about 1 whole paragraph for animal welfare which is why we go vegan in the first place....oh and "but avocados tho" As if only vegans consume avocado.

This article has less of an agenda more statistics and doesn't promote any books xD

Why the vegan diet is not always green

The vegan diet is widely regarded to be better for the planet than those that include animal products, but not all plant-based foodstuffs have a small environmental footprint.

www.bbc.com

 

[Johno please?]

You were talking about what your preferences:

But your preferences would remove all of the animals you refer to from existence. There wouldn't be any animals raised for meat. Or even for eggs or milk. If there wasn't any animal farming there would only be wild animals and pets. So you are talking about wild animals. And the point about carrion still stands. Humans aren't adapted to eating carrion. But it would be a moot point anyway because few humans ever find carrion. In almost all cases other processes consume the corpse. The predator that killed that animal. Scavenging animals, who are much more likely to find it than humans are. Insects. Bacteria. Mould.

I'm assuming you wouldn't count roadkill because that's not "lived their full life term and died of natural causes". It's also relatively rare.

I'm also assuming that, for some reason, you count an animal being killed by a human as unnatural but an animal killed by any animal other than humans natural.

That is a strong possibility yes because like i said, we only breed them for meat they don't exist in nature.

I consider it unnecessary, animals do kill other animals im aware thanks.

Why are you not Vegan? Probably because you Vegans are like flat earthers. Pushing your narrative any chance you can. No reasoning, EVEN if non vegans don't say anything negative towards veganism.
this from first hand experience whilst working in Retail and hospitality.

In all seriousness I like meat, end of.

What narrative is that, that we don't like animals being abused and killed? I've reasoned my arguments throughout this entire thread, the only argument against veganism is "i don't care, i like meat" I cant really say anything in response to that.

But we've had 60 pages of whataboutery, I've now got people asking me if I drink coffee (i dont if you're interested) as if that's somehow relevant to a pig being forced into a gas chamber.

Its hard to change your mind though it took me years, most of us are brought up eating meat and dairy. Meat for protein, milk for calcium, and certainly don't ask how its all made. One, because you might not like the answer and two because there's a lot of people looking to lose an awful lot money.