Why are you not vegan....

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moon man said:
Yeah it's much better to fortify an animal with b12 and then kill it ,err maybe not
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You're flogging a dead horse, if you'll pardon the pun. Some guy in the States is getting well over one hundred thousand dollars and rising from Joe Public for selling dead animals to a mainly young customer base, none stop for 27 years. Veganism is anti capitalist and a mug's game ;)
 
Yeah, if you're going the emotional route, then you've lost the audience... I like science... ;)

The science here is interesting, but there's precious little direct research into vegan impacts mainly because of the ideological slant to it (ie you can't ethically start feeding children/adults meat without their consent!)

Some examples of the rapid IQ impacts:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The impact of dietary intervention on the cognitive development of Kenyan school children - PubMed

Previous observational studies in developing countries have suggested that diet quality, particularly increased animal source food (ASF) consumption, is positively associated with child cognitive development. This report presents findings from a study in rural Kenya, designed to test the impact...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm more interested in the sub-group classifications - eg iron is another problem in vegans. Whilst you can get it from some plants, iron is not the same as iron - eg in plants it's the low-heme variety which is just not the same as meat.
 
katie279 said:
Yeah, if you're going the emotional route, then you've lost the audience... I like science... ;)

The science here is interesting, but there's precious little direct research into vegan impacts mainly because of the ideological slant to it (ie you can't ethically start feeding children/adults meat without their consent!)

Some examples of the rapid IQ impacts:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The impact of dietary intervention on the cognitive development of Kenyan school children - PubMed

Previous observational studies in developing countries have suggested that diet quality, particularly increased animal source food (ASF) consumption, is positively associated with child cognitive development. This report presents findings from a study in rural Kenya, designed to test the impact...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm more interested in the sub-group classifications - eg iron is another problem in vegans. Whilst you can get it from some plants, iron is not the same as iron - eg in plants it's the low-heme variety which is just not the same as meat.
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Think I will have a day off and go in the garden,my daughter is a Dr(scientist) in cancer research (did AI for a while but back to her PhD subject) you would probably get on with her , Warwick uni then UCL btw
Too much iron is something I need to worry more about as i am H63D carrier
 
Heheh! Well that'll sort your vitamin D for sure... ;)

Sounds like we'd get on like a house on fire (I was Oxford/Edinburgh) - likewise did neuroscientific disciplines and then AI/data (think everyone does that these days!).

Yes, definitely iron is your concern - definitely an interesting example of my point, ie aspartic acid replacement.

Get the sun!
 
413x said:
UK is definitely a better place to buy meat from if you're going to buy absolutely.

I've seen these places. (I grew up in Suffolk and saw these a lot)

I admit I'm not upto date with beef/pig farming. And does look like things have improved.

I still hate chicken farming. And I think most of us can agree that farming abroad can be pretty abhorrent.

As someone who isn't militant I actually do not have a problem with eating meat where the animal has had a good life and clean death. But intensive farming is a no from me. Particularly the crueler ones.

It's great to see progress like the pictures and videos above.

Shame it wasn't like like that for chickens and especially abroad. Broiler houses are vile places still.
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Sorry, missed your post - Yes, as a meat eater I think you and I are perfect examples of how we can entirely agree on every point and have different choices at the end of it.

I think it'd be tremendous to push farm standards even higher in the UK and agree entirely with chicken intensive farming - stupid practice driven entirely by profit, not meat (in that, the same stupid practices emerge when you're growing vegetables just fixated on profit).

There's some similar brilliant chicken farms around here that are stellar examples - an interesting sign is usually when the farm welcomes visitors, they're pretty proud of their standards... Maybe we could enforce that somehow ..!
 
katie279 said:
Absolutely know this - not sure the point you're making, the simple point is meat is rich in B12 and 50% of vegans are deficient in it. Much like mushrooms are rich in vitamin D even though we can generate from the sun. There is also subspecification of vitamin classes that's emerged, so it's a little more complex than simply one family of 'B12', so meat and Marmite are slightly different in observed benefits.

But yes, I don't think we should recommend vegans go back to untreated water or eating manure.... ;)

Marmite is an excellent source of B12 - highly recommend it, wonder if more people around the world ate it how many vegan health issues would be avoided - Marmite on my naan bread ...?
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I believe that the best way to get iron is to eat red meat.

You can of course get it from nuts and pulses and things like that but you need to eat so much more to get the right amount that you need so you are not nutritionally deficient.

My best friend is a vegan (who lives in Thailand and does loads of marathons and works out everyday) eats really well but she does have to take extra iron as a supplement as she ends up anaemic.

Her reasons for being vegan is it's better for the environment and not at all about the animals as her favourite part in nature documentaries are watching the animals killing other animals!!
 
edGfaCTor said:
10 months are you serious keep continuing to post it shows with every one how you are so out of your depth.

I have petted a lion what does that mean nothing and pigs will eat anything you like to go on about animals yet you do not even understand them it's nothing to do with abuse it's nature.

The animals my family breed are grass fed only and yes they are bred safely this is not the case in wild again learn something about animals you are stuck in a fantasy land.

You don't know what facts are.

Your sources are again useless more cherry picking also look up the authors they are vegans so a very nice biased bit of info on the soy one (did you even read it anyway to make it simple one of the graphes shows 19.2% humans use not your claimed 7% this is form your own source and you cant get it right)

You are not understanding animals do not require soy the same as humans do not require it use your brain.
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In its natural habitat? No, in a zoo.

You mean the cows your family raise. Pigs and chickens are not grass fed.

Ah good old appeal to nature fallacy, we don't need to eat animals to live. Again the animals we raise, abuse and kill don't exist in nature, so if anything its unnatural.

LOL so even if i'm wrong (im not, and you've provided no citation for any claim) your stat still supports my point, so thanks.
 
Yes agree - especially for women, we aren't great on iron intake (whole other interesting evolutionary development there!) - supplements will go a long way, but there's some really complex inter nutrient dependencies that are observed that make it harder.
 
Johno please? said:
While vegans absolutely should acknowledge that their lifestyles do cause harm, the solution to the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries)
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I don't think you can "murder" an animal; the term specifically relates to humans.
Actually, I think the same goes for oppression.
 
Lopéz said:
I don't think you can "murder" an animal; the term specifically relates to humans.
Actually, I think the same goes for oppression.
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The agenda is to project human terms onto animals.

Mind you, I've not seen anyone getting agitated that basically every farm animal is raped. Maybe they're selective.
 
Lopéz said:
I don't think you can "murder" an animal; the term specifically relates to humans.
Actually, I think the same goes for oppression.
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Yea that was a copy and paste cos I bored of repeating myself.

I do prefer the term "killed" but if someone wants to say "murdered" its still accurate enough, I mean, these animals we kill are a "someone" not a "something".
 
edGfaCTor said:
[..]
Not at all and I said millions of years is 2 million not millions.
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Are you trolling? I acknowledged that 2 million qualifies as "millions" (even though that's absolutely not what the phrase "millions of years" usually means). So why are you pretending I didn't?

You are, of course, ignoring the main point. That timeframe is for the genus, not the species. Homo Sapiens (the species you were referring to) has existed for at most 300,000 years. 300,000 is not millions. You're confusing a species with a genus. That level of ignorance would be acceptable in general terms, but you're deliberately refusing to learn anything and you're calling other people confused because they don't share your deliberate ignorance. Which leads me to believe you're trolling.
 
Saint1972 said:
Oumph Doner style is currently 39p a bag at the moment at Farmfoods.Almost 10% of the normal price.Got myself 5 bags :)
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Used to like oumph but went off it hard.
I'm vegetarian and have generally found over the years that there isn't 'one' great meat subsistute rather that you kinda have to rotate them into your meal plan. I would say the exception is probably beyond...but buying that regularly requires a remortgage.
 
katie279 said:
I'm not sure what point either side is making here, but possibly interesting that 2-2.6m years ago our ancestors started eating meat and this lead to the huge brain expansion that ultimately separated humans from primates.

There's debate about the start of this - ie whether we scavenged carcasses or hunted small animals, but meat was a foundation of what made us human.

This also plays through in the fact that many of the health impacts/potential risks of meat-free diets are neurological (eg increased risks of stroke, dementia, etc).

Also fascinating how quickly it can affect the brain - eg B12 deficiency (which is widespread in vegan diets) directly affects IQ.

As I say, not exactly sure of what the point is, but I'm fascinated by the brain, so thought might be interesting!

Certainly this is one of the bigger niggles I'd have with vegan diet, there are so many core nutrients that we just can't get from vegetables or nuts that have neurological impacts - none that are immediate disasters, just long range decline/risk points.
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So what you’re saying is vegans are stupid ? :D
 
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