Why are you not vegan....

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You've dodged the question. If youre happy to chose the one that causes more suffering then fine, but at least admit it.

Raising and killing animals is not necessary to live a healthy life.

I have dodged nothing. You are consistently framing the scenario in terms of the priority being to cause abuse, torture, harm.

No, the priority is to obtain meat and animal products and a requirement of that is to kill the animals involved. Are you hoping there's some kind of crushing guilt in killing animals for food and animal products?

It's not necessary to live on vegetables and fruit to live a healthy life.
 
You will get the opposite, you will get support if you ask for simply better welfare for animals and reduce animal consumption or use of leather etc.

Don't go for 100%, you need to do it little by little. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Keep pushing veganism, especially with the morality angle, you will get pushback from everyone. ps I have not eaten anything dairy, meat and my shoes today is not leather, my bag is made of cotton, 18 hours and counting...am I a vegan? No, but I am doing my best.

It was just a link from the NHS on diet, yes not scientific. I have linked the studies from oxford university and The Academy Of Nutrition and Dietetics many times.

While reducing meat/dairy consumption is a good first step, "asking for better animal welfare, but still eating meat" isnt my position so im not going to advocate for something I don't agree with am I.

And this is where I have to object. Cars are a lifestyle choice, exactly like eating meat. I'm guessing you own a car and thus the different standards for "necessity".

Edit: typo, err two!

I use my car very little, cycle to work/gym etc. The harm from people driving cars pales in comparison to animal agriculture.
 
It was just a link from the NHS on diet, yes not scientific. I have linked the studies from oxford university and The Academy Of Nutrition and Dietetics many times.

While reducing meat/dairy consumption is a good first step, "asking for better animal welfare, but still eating meat" isnt my position so im not going to advocate for something I don't agree with am I.

You are advocating for less animals to be killed and harmed right?

If that is your goal then while you can personally commit to being vegan, you can separately push for reduce meat diet for other people. If you do that, you will get support and no pushback from people like you have seen.

Are you able to separate the 2? in order to achieve your goal, which is fewer animals harmed and killed?
 
You are advocating for less animals to be killed and harmed right?

If that is your goal then while you can personally commit to being vegan, you can separately push for reduce meat diet for other people. If you do that, you will get support and no pushback from people like you have seen.

Are you able to separate the 2? in order to achieve your goal, which is fewer animals harmed and killed?
Dont be silly, most dont give a damn. Anyway your argument is flawed. As I keep saying that is down to the people that say they do care about animal welfare while scoffing away on dead and possibly abused animals. If you care about animal welfare what are you doing about it? And Im not talking about farmers symbol or any of the rubbish. Nothing I bet. Had any veal recently or even pig?

We actually still sell animal products that are illegal to be produced here. That says just about everything you need to know about what people think of animal welfare.
 
Possibly so, but my point is that you are playing fast and loose with the language and logic behind your assertions. I wouldn't want you on my debating team.

Not really, i've been pretty clear from the start what veganism is, its got nothing to do with driving a car really.

I should have made my point clearer though... that driving a car causes hardly any harm to animals compared to animal agriculture, obviously the pollution is another matter.

Even the frogs get *******, shouldn't come as a surprise really... https://www.thedodo.com/in-the-wild/frog-farm-footage-china
 
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Ah ok, so it's a relative thing - I'm genuinely curious as some things are ethically binary and some are on gradients (this sounds like the latter).

Eg how many rapes, murders etc are 'ok' in the UK - most people would say zero is the minimum, whereas how many military deaths in war are accepted is more of a gradient and depends on the situation, rationale etc

So I guess you're saying you want to minimise animal deaths/suffering in farming due to the volume, not the act? ie let's say there are 500,000 animals killed on the roads each year, I assume you wouldn't be ok with reducing animals raised for food to 500,000 a year? (you'd still push for zero).

In a similar notion, I assume (but happy to be told otherwise) that you don't have an issue with the millions of 'natural' deaths each year in nature (eg cats, badgers, ferrets, hawks, owls, foxes, hedgehogs, pike, perch etc etc pretty brutally killed animals every night) - I assume you wouldn't want to start controlling nature - eg you could try and stop predators catching animals/causing suffering etc.

As I say, not having a go - just genuinely interested in your moral compass on this:

1) Are you trying to reduce suffering of animals as much as possible (in which case you'd want to stop farming, driving, predators hunting etc)
2) Are you trying to stop humans causing animal suffering (in which case you'd naturally be open to stop farming, driving, having pets, horse racing etc)
3) Is it less about the suffering, more about reducing meat consumption ( in which case it's just the farming bit)

Obviously all the above are on gradients depending how serious you are - eg Greta Thunberg is so serious about climate change she thinks we should all instantly stop driving, using factories, shut power plants - most people kinda accept they'd prefer to cause a bit more environment damage in exchange for less disruption and change at a slower pace!

Likewise, to be vegan I'd imagine it's pretty difficult far beyond food - your banknotes use animal fats, your car using animal skins, shoes with leathers, wallets, beer uses fish swim bladders, candle/soap with tallow, your house is riddled with animal products used for its construction etc etc... it's an interesting measurement as to 'how far' each person takes it
 
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Why am I not vegan.
Cos I like meat too much

Well the real answer is you are happy for animals to be killed for your pleasure. That is why you still eat it. I like meat I just refuse to eat it.

Some people in here talk about it like it is crack or some other addictive drug. Also meat isnt the only thing vegans are against.

I have to say there are some very weak arguments and blame shifting coming from meat eaters
 
I use my car very little, cycle to work/gym etc. The harm from people driving cars pales in comparison to animal agriculture.

Woah there. Your stated stance here on animal welfare has been that there is no middle ground. You are vegan or you're a monster. Taking an approach to minimise animal suffering means nothing, according to your previous posts - you have to cut out any potential to harm an animal entirely.

Why is it suddenly OK to kill animals as long as it's a lot fewer?
 
Woah there. Your stated stance here on animal welfare has been that there is no middle ground. You are vegan or you're a monster. Taking an approach to minimise animal suffering means nothing, according to your previous posts - you have to cut out any potential to harm an animal entirely.

Why is it suddenly OK to kill animals as long as it's a lot fewer?
Maybe put the leg of meat down and read the post properly.
While reducing meat/dairy consumption is a good first step, "asking for better animal welfare, but still eating meat" isnt my position so im not going to advocate for something I don't agree with am I.
 
Maybe put the leg of meat down and read the post properly.

Maybe eat some animal products and your brain will function correctly to understand the point the person is making.

I am still waiting for people like you to come back with how a person who eats only animal foods causes more harm when a whole family can get away with consuming 1-2 animals per year yet every day the food consumed by a vegan has gone through a process which has killed millions of insects etc. 2 animals vs millions very simple math and is FACTS.

This is the problem with you vegans you are so closed minded.

Do you even grow any of your own food I expect not and I was expect you don't go a buy it from a local farm.

If you want to be a vegtard that is your choice I have no issues with this but don't go spreading lies, pushing your agenda as if its how our species should live plus claims it is better for animals also the climate which all are BS.
 
Maybe eat some animal products and your brain will function correctly to understand the point the person is making.

I am still waiting for people like you to come back with how a person who eats only animal foods causes more harm when a whole family can get away with consuming 1-2 animals per year yet every day the food consumed by a vegan has gone through a process which has killed millions of insects etc. 2 animals vs millions very simple math and is FACTS.

This is the problem with you vegans you are so closed minded.

Do you even grow any of your own food I expect not and I was expect you don't go a buy it from a local farm.

If you want to be a vegtard that is your choice I have no issues with this but don't go spreading lies, pushing your agenda as if its how our species should live plus claims it is better for animals also the climate which all are BS.
First of all Im not a vegan and second isnt it a bit early to be that drunk?
 
I am still waiting for people like you to come back with how a person who eats only animal foods causes more harm when a whole family can get away with consuming 1-2 animals per year yet every day the food consumed by a vegan has gone through a process which has killed millions of insects etc. 2 animals vs millions very simple math and is FACTS
Why are you not including insect deaths for the animals food sources ? And where did you pull 1-2 animals a year consumed by a "whole" family, I would imagine they could eat a whole chicken in a single sitting
 
Why are you not including insect deaths for the animals food sources ? And where did you pull 1-2 animals a year consumed by a "whole" family, I would imagine they could eat a whole chicken in a single sitting

How many insects deaths by for example a cow 0 in the UK it may be possible some are I am not going to claim otherwise but based on numbers it's not millions now is it compaired to eating plants. (I didn't even mention before how animals are required to restore the soil after the crops have destroyed it)

Correct 1-2 animals for a whole family for 1 year this is coming from farmers you can easily verify this online as well.

If you want to feed off multi animals it will increase but not by much unless I start to eat a plate full of insects/bugs which is being pushed and again groups class this as acceptable but a cow or a chicken laying eggs is not
 
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