Why can't they just remove the lid and sip like from a cup ?

[chaparral]

Maybe they could change to metal straws

 

[Puzzled]

I used a McD's paper straw since the change and it wasn't that bad, though the plastic ones are obviously better.

Clearly the solution for this is to have reusable Ronald McDonald sippy cups hanging above the counter like Pete Beale's tankard from Eastenders.

Anyone that can't deal with the straws can use of those instead.

Ha, its a good point. If McDonald's gave all sit in visitors a glass / mug rather than a throwaway cup it would have far more impact than the straw change (I'd imagine the majority of straws end up in their own bins).
How is it they can make a paper cup that can hold liquid but they can't make a decent straw? If greener alternatives are to be taken seriously they need to as good (or at least pretty close) to the original. I'm sure someone out there has made a decent paper straw but McDonald's has gone for a cheaper one as this whole thing is just a PR stunt to make them look like they care.

 

[Werewolf]

They were serving a hot drink. Have you never ordered a cup of tea in the UK? Should I be able to bankrupt any cafe owners if I spill a cup of tea down myself?

She got a takeaway drink then put it between her legs in the car park, removed the lid and split it on herself.

Yes a hot drink is hot, adults should be aware of this.

I make these “extremely dangerous”, as you call them, hot drinks every day at home, in fact the ones I make are even more dangerous as they’re hotter (with water straight from the kettle) and the mugs I use at home don’t even have a lid.... strangely enough I don’t tend to stick them between my legs as that would be a silly thing to do.

This has come up repeatedly and repeatedly the same wrong argument has been made about it.

McDonalds made the Coffee at a hotter temperature than was the norm for fast food/take away outlets serving it in the manner they did.
They did this despite warnings from their own people about the dangers and despite the fact that it had caused multiple accidents.

They served it at a temperature that was high enough to cause second degree injuries within seconds (IE unless you were standing up and wearing stage clothing that could be ripped off you'd get hurt, badly).
They knew this, there was plenty of evidence from their own internal documentation that they considered it worth the risk to people who didn't realise that McDonald's were infact serving it at something like 10c higher than the industry standard (the difference between more or less instant serious deep injury and painful but surface injury).

So no you didn't expect that your coffee to go was served at a temperature that would cause serious injury if spilt, or if drunk immediately.

Oddly enough the Jury looked at the case and decided that McDonalds had put profit before safety, as the only reason they were serving it that hot was that it meant they got about 5% more servings per refill of the machine.

Think about it, a company decided that it would risk horrific injuries on it's staff and customers because it meant they made a few cents per drink extra.

Still seem reasonable?
Oddly enough it was considered similar to the Ford case from the 70's where they decided it was better to pay the odd compensation for people burning to death due to a poor car design than to fix the design.

 

[esmozz]

......whole thing is just a PR stunt to make them look like they care.

Personnally I think McDonalds should have been building nuclear power stations for the last 20 years if they really wanted to show they cared.

Ah hmm, maybe haven't thought this through properly........

 

[Rainmaker]

How is it they can make a paper cup that can hold liquid but they can't make a decent straw?

Probably because the cups are coated in... plastic. The new straws are a horrible texture and taste (I'm Autistic), so I don't use them. Perhaps there's a method for coating them in something biodegradable - beeswax, some kind of plant based cellulose? *shrug* As for ice bashing your teeth (not you, MonkeyMan) order it without ice. Get much more drink, no more nasty. Win/win.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

I had my first paper straw in Scotland last week and I didn't stop moaning.

 

[Puzzled]

Probably because the cups are coated in... plastic. The new straws are a horrible texture and taste (I'm Autistic), so I don't use them. Perhaps there's a method for coating them in something biodegradable - beeswax, some kind of plant based cellulose? *shrug* As for ice bashing your teeth (not you, MonkeyMan) order it without ice. Get much more drink, no more nasty. Win/win.

So they are, just like coffee cups. Do they have recycling bins in the restaurants now, I only use the drive thru on rare occasions but I'm assuming they do as I doubt the waste is sorted after collection.

Just think how much waste they could avoid if they used reusable cups in-store, would only need to add a cup washer out the back. Or if that is too much hassle just send them back where they can cleaned and sent out again.

 

[Em3bbs]

This has come up repeatedly and repeatedly the same wrong argument has been made about it.

McDonalds made the Coffee at a hotter temperature than was the norm for fast food/take away outlets serving it in the manner they did.
They did this despite warnings from their own people about the dangers and despite the fact that it had caused multiple accidents.

They served it at a temperature that was high enough to cause second degree injuries within seconds (IE unless you were standing up and wearing stage clothing that could be ripped off you'd get hurt, badly).
They knew this, there was plenty of evidence from their own internal documentation that they considered it worth the risk to people who didn't realise that McDonald's were infact serving it at something like 10c higher than the industry standard (the difference between more or less instant serious deep injury and painful but surface injury).

So no you didn't expect that your coffee to go was served at a temperature that would cause serious injury if spilt, or if drunk immediately.

Oddly enough the Jury looked at the case and decided that McDonalds had put profit before safety, as the only reason they were serving it that hot was that it meant they got about 5% more servings per refill of the machine.

Think about it, a company decided that it would risk horrific injuries on it's staff and customers because it meant they made a few cents per drink extra.

Still seem reasonable?
Oddly enough it was considered similar to the Ford case from the 70's where they decided it was better to pay the odd compensation for people burning to death due to a poor car design than to fix the design.

Lots of text, but what is the actual temperature that tea or coffee should be served at according to the law?

 

[Apone70]

The most important question here. Can you still do the trick with the new ones, where you rip off the end of the straw wrapper, blow through the straw and then the rest of the wrapper flies across the table and ends up in a friends eye?

Good call

 

[Delvis]

So much butt hurt in here

 

[Werewolf]

Lots of text, but what is the actual temperature that tea or coffee should be served at according to the law?

IIRC the recommendation is something like 67c

McDonalds were serving it at close to 90c
Think about that for a moment, serving coffee that might as well have been straight from the kettle, as something to be carried by people and consumed usually in a vehicle (McDonald's themselves knew most of the coffee they sold was drunk in vehicles and indeed the act of handing it over at the drive through was dangerous given the temperature).

Their own internal documentation called it unsafe to consume upon purchase.
Other outlets usually served it at around 67c and if you're doing it at home apparently the normal temperature is about 60c (IIRC the maximum water temp for most boilers is around 60c, and IIRC at 70c a hot water heater supplying a tap has to have a specific warning).

Also the woman wasn't actually driving, and the vehicle was stationary at the time.

It's a classic instance of a legal case being well known about, but most of the people that moan about how stupid the law is and point to it, have zero understanding of the actual case, or it's most basic facts.

IIRC she only originally wanted McDonald's to cover her expenses and lost time at work, it was a Jury that when they heard the evidence decided to punish McDonalds harshly for their lack of concern about safety (and even then the amount IIRC was only a fraction of the companies profits from it's coffee for a set period).

 

[dowie]

This has come up repeatedly and repeatedly the same wrong argument has been made about it.

McDonalds made the Coffee at a hotter temperature than was the norm for fast food/take away outlets serving it in the manner they did.
They did this despite warnings from their own people about the dangers and despite the fact that it had caused multiple accidents.

If I've got a fact wrong then you're welcome to correct it but having a different opinion to you doesn't mean my opinion is "wrong". I'm aware of the case and I don't see why a takeaway hot drink can't be served to people.

McDonalds also serve unhealthy food full of fat, they're also well aware that the food is unhealthy, if someone chooses to go and eat McDonalds every day that is their choice and their responsibility. I suspect that McDonalds causes even more damage to people by their food alone, no doubt deaths too.. I don't see this as a reason to stop McDonalds serving fatty fast food any more than I'd want them to stop serving hot coffee at the existing temperature.

So no you didn't expect that your coffee to go was served at a temperature that would cause serious injury if spilt, or if drunk immediately.

I'd dispute that, you'd get hot drinks served far hotter in plenty of places in the UK given that we're big tea drinkers, in fact you'll get drinks served without a lid even. They're serving a drink between 82-87 degrees C, you can go to various cafes and get a hot cup of tea with water essentially straight out of the kettle.

You'd have to be rather silly to not know that a hot drink is indeed hot! It is a takeaway coffee, McDonalds serves them at a particular temperature in order to allow customers to take them away and not have them cool down too much... this particular customer instead sat in the McDonald's parking lot, in a car and placed the hot drink between her legs then removed the lid and split it on herself - IMHO it was her own fault. She was in a stationary vehicle and could have simply had her food and drink in the restaurant instead or indeed just placed the cup in a cup holder or held it infant of her. Putting a flexible cup of drink between your legs whether hot or not is silly and frankly her own fault.

Oddly enough the Jury looked at the case and decided that McDonalds had put profit before safety, as the only reason they were serving it that hot was that it meant they got about 5% more servings per refill of the machine.

Think about it, a company decided that it would risk horrific injuries on it's staff and customers because it meant they made a few cents per drink extra.

Still seem reasonable?

I think it is perfectly reasonable to serve grown adults hot drinks in cups with lids on them and for those adults to take some personal responsibility with regards to the hot drink.

Now what about my question - you can walk into any number of breakfast cafes in the UK tomorrow and get an even hotter cup of tea served without a lid even, if you were to spill it over yourself do you think it is reasonable that the cafe owner be sued for some amount of money that would likely cause the business to go under?

Oddly enough it was considered similar to the Ford case from the 70's where they decided it was better to pay the odd compensation for people burning to death due to a poor car design than to fix the design.

I think you're talking about the Ford Pinto case and that is a common misconception:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_system_fires,_recalls,_and_litigation

A common misconception is that the document considered Ford's tort liability costs rather than the generalized cost to society and applied to the annual sales of all passenger cars, not just Ford vehicles. The general misunderstanding of the document, as presented by Mother Jones, gave it an operational significance it never had.

 

[dowie]

Lots of text, but what is the actual temperature that tea or coffee should be served at according to the law?

There isn't any legislation AFAIK, this woman split it on herself while sat in a parked car after taking the lid off and sticking it between her legs and because McDonald's serves coffee a hotter than usual she was able to convince a jury to award her damages. It is a story where the popular opinion after hearing only some basic details is to think "oh silly Americans and their suing culture" then the popular opinion after hearing more details like the extent of her injuries and how she only initially went after them for medical costs is to think "oh poor old lady, evil McDonalds".

The unpopular opinion is to still think that she has some personal responsibility, she spilt it on herself after removing the lid and hot drink is hot... the extent of her injuries doesn't suddenly make her carelessness McDonald's fault. Of course they're aware that hot drinks are dangerous and the hotter they are the more dangerous they can be but their position is that the customers want the coffee to be served hot. These days they're very clear with the warnings that hot drink is indeed hot.

 

[phrases]

Grabbed myself a milkshake at lunch today paper straw.. Urggh weird sensation doesn't feel right! Not enough to stop me buying them once in awhile but for milkshakes its a bit odd.

 

[Angilion]

They were serving a hot drink. [..]

As I already explained, they were not. Something that would seriously injure and possibly kill a person who drank it is not a drink.

If anyone cares, the details of the case are available. The bottom line is that McDonald's deliberately and knowingly created an unreasonable hazard and continued to do so despite repeated injuries.

Here's an extremely brief summary:

https://www.ttla.com/index.cfm?pg=McDonaldsCoffeeCaseFacts

An even briefer summary of a key part, quoted from that article:

She received third-degree burns over 16 percent of her body, necessitating hospitalization for eight days, whirlpool treatment for debridement of her wounds, skin grafting, scarring, and disability for more than two years.

Despite these extensive injuries, she offered to settle with McDonald’s for $20,000. However, McDonald’s refused to settle.

[..]

McDonald's admitted that it has known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years

I doubt if the $20,000 she asked for would even have covered her medical expenses.

[..]
The unpopular opinion is to still think that she has some personal responsibility, she spilt it on herself after removing the lid and hot drink is hot... the extent of her injuries doesn't suddenly make her carelessness McDonald's fault.

The court case ruled her partially at fault, which is why she was only awarded partial compensation. McDonald's was ruled to be at fault not because of her carelessness but because it deliberately and knowingly created an extreme hazard and continued to do so for years despite repeated injuries resulting from the hazard they created. In some cases, the victim was not at fault at all.

Of course they're aware that hot drinks are dangerous and the hotter they are the more dangerous they can be but their position is that the customers want the coffee to be served hot. These days they're very clear with the warnings that hot drink is indeed hot.

Rather more relevantly, these days they serve hot drinks at a far less dangerous temperature. It's misleading to dismiss it as "hot drinks are hot". There are degrees of hotness.

Before: It was not a drink because it could not be drunk. Contact would cause 3rd degree burns in 2 seconds. Even minor contact would require expensive medical treatment and cause permanent injury.

Afterwards: It's a hot drink. Contact would cause 3rd degree burns in about 60 seconds, assuming nothing was done.

 

[dowie]

As I already explained, they were not. Something that would seriously injure and possibly kill a person who drank it is not a drink.

I'm really not sure what the point is of some argument that a hot drink isn't a "drink" because you think it is too hot and will potentially kill you... it is just hyperbole, these hot drinks are served every day at thousands of McDonalds and people do drink them. Have you never sipped a hot cup of tea before? I have one of these lethal hot supposed non-drinks in front of me right now and have just taken a sip... surprisingly enough it didn't kill me and I didn't spill it all down myself either. I don't doubt that had I spilt it down me it could have caused some nasty injury, that doesn't mean I can't take a sip from my cup of tea... McDonalds served millions of these cups of coffees, they are hot drinks and they certainly can be and were drunk by millions of people.

Rather more relevantly, these days they serve hot drinks at a far less dangerous temperature. It's misleading to dismiss it as "hot drinks are hot". There are degrees of hotness.

You got a citation for the current temperature they serve drinks at?*

Before: It was not a drink because it could not be drunk. Contact would cause 3rd degree burns in 2 seconds. Even minor contact would require expensive medical treatment and cause permanent injury.

This is just more silliness... it is a hot drink and it can be drunk as per above.

You've still avoided the question though and have instead chosen to carry on with some semantic argument where you want to claim a hot drink isn't a drink.

Have you never been to say a greasy spoons type cafe where they serve a cup of tea with a full English breakfast?

* edit - according to this they've not changed the temperature but instead have made the cups more ridged (in addition to putting a lid on them which the lady in question removed with the cup between her legs) and placed more warnings on the cups to inform people that the hot drink they've been served is indeed hot!

Since Liebeck, McDonald's has not reduced the service temperature of its coffee. McDonald's policy today[when?] is to serve coffee at 176–194 °F (80–90 °C),[37] relying on more sternly worded warnings on cups made of rigid foam to avoid future liability, though it continues to face lawsuits over hot coffee.[37][38] The Specialty Coffee Association of Americasupports improved packaging methods rather than lowering the temperature at which coffee is served. The association has successfully aided the defense of subsequent coffee burn cases.[39] Similarly, as of 2004, Starbucks sells coffee at 175–185 °F (79–85 °C), and the executive director of the Specialty Coffee Association of America reported that the standard serving temperature is 160–185 °F (71–85 °C).

 

[Efour]

Stop straws altogether. If you can't drink a tasty beverage without a straw then you deserve to die of dehydration.

This is in an able bodied context before anyone ****s their pants.

 

[edscdk]

They were serving a hot drink. Have you never ordered a cup of tea in the UK? Should I be able to bankrupt any cafe owners if I spill a cup of tea down myself?

She got a takeaway drink then put it between her legs in the car park, removed the lid and split it on herself.

Yes a hot drink is hot, adults should be aware of this.

I make these “extremely dangerous”, as you call them, hot drinks every day at home, in fact the ones I make are even more dangerous as they’re hotter (with water straight from the kettle) and the mugs I use at home don’t even have a lid.... strangely enough I don’t tend to stick them between my legs as that would be a silly thing to do.

I cannot be bothered to look it up now but im pretty sure it's not as simple as shop sells coffee woman spills and sues ... As in they were told its too hot and they put out misinformation .. I have spilt coffee over myself a few times over the years and never got burnt (not saying its something I'd do for fun)

 

[platinum87]

IIRC the recommendation is something like 67c

McDonalds were serving it at close to 90c
Think about that for a moment, serving coffee that might as well have been straight from the kettle, as something to be carried by people and consumed usually in a vehicle (McDonald's themselves knew most of the coffee they sold was drunk in vehicles and indeed the act of handing it over at the drive through was dangerous given the temperature).

Their own internal documentation called it unsafe to consume upon purchase.
Other outlets usually served it at around 67c and if you're doing it at home apparently the normal temperature is about 60c (IIRC the maximum water temp for most boilers is around 60c, and IIRC at 70c a hot water heater supplying a tap has to have a specific warning).

Also the woman wasn't actually driving, and the vehicle was stationary at the time.

It's a classic instance of a legal case being well known about, but most of the people that moan about how stupid the law is and point to it, have zero understanding of the actual case, or it's most basic facts.

IIRC she only originally wanted McDonald's to cover her expenses and lost time at work, it was a Jury that when they heard the evidence decided to punish McDonalds harshly for their lack of concern about safety (and even then the amount IIRC was only a fraction of the companies profits from it's coffee for a set period).

Just explain how they make more money serving hotter drinks please, it should cost them more in electricity to serve them hotter.

 

[edscdk]

Just explain how they make more money serving hotter drinks please, it should cost them more in electricity to serve them hotter.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-mcdonalds-coffee-case_b_14002362

"They used this temperature based on a consultant’s advice that this was the range needed for the best taste"

costs are not always the 100% most important thing... taken to the extreme coffee at room temp will be the cheapest but you will not sell any...