Will Ryzen 6000 CPUs be based on the N6 fab process (Warhol chip) and release in 2021?

g67575 · 16 Feb 2021 at 00:55

I don't think this (unofficial) leaked roadmap is quite right:

Cezanne based APUs will become available in Q1 2021 (already available on the Chinese market), in this diagram, it's placed too far forward. It should probably be in line with Vermeer (the Ryzen 5000 series).

This is relevant because it (incorrectly) suggests Rembrandt won't release until 2022, which is apparently based on the N6 process. I find it very hard to believe they would utilize N6 for an APU, but not for the higher clocked standalone CPU variant (Warhol). Also, I doubt the type of DDR memory used would be different to Rembrandt.

I'm partly wondering if this is just AMD trying to get fans excited for 5nm and Zen 4, by playing down that the Ryzen 6000 series will be based on N6 and likely release in 2021.

humbug · 16 Feb 2021 at 02:07

g67575 said:
I don't think this (unofficial) leaked roadmap is quite right:

Cezanne based APUs will become available in Q1 2021 (already available on the Chinese market), in this diagram, it's placed too far forward. It should probably be in line with Vermeer (the Ryzen 5000 series).

This is relevant because it (incorrectly) suggests Rembrandt won't release until 2022, which is apparently based on the N6 process. I find it very hard to believe they would utilize N6 for an APU, but not for the higher clocked desktop variant (Warhol). Also, I doubt the type of DDR memory used would be different to Rembrandt.

I'm partly wondering if this is just AMD trying to get fans excited for 5nm and Zen 4, by playing down that the Ryzen 6000 series will be based on N6 and likely release in 2021.

Yeah this Jurno created roadmap assumes a per year release, Even then Vermeer is already wrong, which was released in November 2020, it says on there 2021, Matisse it says on there 2020, that's also wrong, July 2019 in fact.

Warhol in Q4 2021 will be 12 months after Vermeer, i don't even think Warhol was a thing to AMD until late last year when Intel started talking up Rocket Lake. Raphael probably as scheduled around Q2 2022.

humbug · 16 Feb 2021 at 02:12

humbug said:
Yeah this Jurno created roadmap assumes a per year release, Even then Vermeer is already wrong, which was released in November 2020, it says on there 2021, Matisse it says on there 2020, that's also wrong, July 2019 in fact.

Warhol in Q4 2021 will be 12 months after Vermeer, i don't even think Warhol was a thing to AMD until late last year when Intel started talking up Rocket Lake. Raphael probably as scheduled around Q2 2022.

Oh hang on a minute..... the space between the doted lines are the 12 months between years and the slides are off set to that. Could be about right.

g67575 · 16 Feb 2021 at 20:43

It's interesting that AMD hasn't mentioned the N6 node at all on roadmaps or announcements.

g67575 · 16 Feb 2021 at 23:14

Does anyone think the Ryzen 6000 series (Warhol) will be 7nm based instead, and utilize ddr4 memory on an AM4 CPU socket?

Its possible the N6 node rumours are wrong...

humbug · 17 Feb 2021 at 00:14

g67575 said:
Does anyone think the Ryzen 6000 series (Warhol) will be 7nm based instead, and utilize ddr4 memory on an AM4 CPU socket?

Its possible the N6 node rumours are wrong...

Yes

g67575 · 17 Feb 2021 at 02:04

humbug said:
Yes

Personally, I think AMD would rather there were no leaks regarding TSMC's N6 process and AMD CPUs - ofc, they want to keep selling Ryzen 5000 series processors, at least for as long as they have an advantage over Intel.

I think the N6 process could be quite significant though, as it is the first process designed to utilize EUV in the initial version - TSMC have stated they expect most customers to move from N7 and N7+ (EUV) processes to N6. It's possible there isn't much difference between the EUV fab. processes (they both other around 20% transistor density improvement vs standard 7nm), that it's just a rebranded version of N7+, but with the same design rules as N7.

EDIT - Actually, there is a slight difference, explained here "TSMC's N7+ will be the first node to leverage EUV, using up to four EUVL layers, while N6 expands it up to five layers". Then a large improvement with 5nm, "N5 cranks EUVL up to fourteen (allowing for 14 layers)". Link here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/255097/tsmc-expects-most-7nm-customers-to-move-to-6nm-density

I think 6N is quite likely to offer a similar transistor density to Intel's 10nm used in Alder Lake (which does not utilize EUV lithography - something Intel appears to be behind on despite developing this technique...).

If it's not used in desktop CPUs, it does make you wonder what the N6 node will be used for - TSMC has invested considerable resources in it's development. It's possible it will be mostly used in GPUs (we know Intel is planning this for 'XE' graphics cards), at least until there are more optimized versions of 5nm (EUV), that will further improve the transistor density or power efficiency of GPU dies.

g67575 · 17 Feb 2021 at 22:58

I think this shows that Intel is in trouble, if AMD uses 7N+ or N6 (transistor density is almost identical) in 2021:

Especially if they don't release Alder Lake CPUs (10nm) when AMD releases the Ryzen 6000 series. There's also no sign yet that Intel has been able to improve the transistor density of 10nm much since 2019.

Also, the fact that the Wikipedia 7nm article suggests N6 "2020 production" could mean either that the release of 6N based products is imminent, or it's possible there could be a delay in manufacturing that hasn't been reported yet.

g67575 · 18 Feb 2021 at 00:42

Apparently, Mediatek is producing APUs (octa-core CPU + five-core G57 GPU) for Chromebooks based on the TSMC 6N fab. process, which will be available in Q2 2021 (later for the MT8195), link here:
https://corp.mediatek.com/news-even...s-designed-for-next-generation-of-chromebooks

So, it looks like the 6N process is ready for use in processors.

FoxEye · 18 Feb 2021 at 20:40

If they do release a new CPU gen this year (personally, I doubt it), it will probably push prices even higher.

AMD aiming for the skies now with their pricing. You want more perf? You pay more money! Expect 6 cores that start at £350 and 8-cores in the £500 range.

Lisa Su gonna milk you dry, boy.

humbug · 18 Feb 2021 at 22:34

FoxEye said:
If they do release a new CPU gen this year (personally, I doubt it), it will probably push prices even higher.

AMD aiming for the skies now with their pricing. You want more perf? You pay more money! Expect 6 cores that start at £350 and 8-cores in the £500 range.

Lisa Su gonna milk you dry, boy.

Oh stop, 3 years ago an 8 core CPU would have cost you £900 from Intel.

FoxEye · 18 Feb 2021 at 22:51

humbug said:
Oh stop, 3 years ago an 8 core CPU would have cost you £900 from Intel.

Three years ago you'd have a bought an 8600k 6 core part which handily beat an AMD 8 core in gaming.

Back then AMD fans were shouting "moar cores!". Now it's the other way round, and "cores don't matter" (since the £300 5600x).

Until this post, that is, when you're back to comparing core counts again

Your goalposts are very fluid.

Anyway, I'm sure in another 3 years Lisa will be happy to sell you an 8 core for £900

g67575 · 19 Feb 2021 at 04:36

FoxEye said:
Lisa Su gonna milk you dry, boy.

I won't lie, this creates some disturbing imagery...

2017 - Ryzen 1000
2018 - Ryzen 2000
2019 - Ryzen 3000
2020 - Ryzen 5000 - note - we skipped the 4000 desktop CPU series because in our humble opinion this series is just *that* good.

Hhmmm, is there some kind of kind of pattern forming here, just beyond the reaches of my conscious mind?

I'm fine with 6 CPU cores personally, although a lower clocked 8 core CPU would probably be worth it in the long term, if it only cost a bit more. AMD does not seem keen to release a Ryzen 3700X successor, except for the impossible to buy, awkwardly named Ryzen 5800 (oem).

Grim5 · 19 Feb 2021 at 05:55

FoxEye said:
Three years ago you'd have a bought an 8600k 6 core part which handily beat an AMD 8 core in gaming.

Back then AMD fans were shouting "moar cores!". Now it's the other way round, and "cores don't matter" (since the £300 5600x).

Until this post, that is, when you're back to comparing core counts again Your goalposts are very fluid.

Anyway, I'm sure in another 3 years Lisa will be happy to sell you an 8 core for £900

Lisa has no choice

AMD's investors have demanded more returns - Intel and Nvidia makes 60% margin and AMD investors supposed to be happy with 40% margin, yeah nope happening AMD had to raise margin as soon as it could

g67575 · 19 Feb 2021 at 06:12

well, its not surprising, the 5600x has higher ST performance than current Intel CPUs. The prices are likely to fall when rocket lake releases - that is, if Intel can produce sufficient stock.

g67575 · 19 Feb 2021 at 06:55

There's some info about AMD's server 'Genoa' platform, that could release in 2021. Apparently, it has a new SP5 socket and potentially DDR5 RAM support, link here:
https://www.wepc.com/news/amd-inadv...epyc-zen-3-milan-and-zen-4-genoa-server-cpus/

This reminds me of the similar rumours about Intel 'Sapphire Rapids', DDR5 server processors in 2021.

There's also some 7nm+ Zen 3 server CPUs ('Milan') that entered production in Q3 2020, link here:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/a...noa-architecture-microarchitecture,40561.html

g67575 · 20 Feb 2021 at 21:07

Isn't anyone thinking about the Ryzen 6000 (or Alderlake) processors yet? Maybe it's too soon?

humbug · 20 Feb 2021 at 21:14

g67575 said:
Isn't anyone thinking about the Ryzen 6000 (or Alderlake) processors yet? Maybe it's too soon?

Probably too soon, Genoa will get more attention after Rocket Lake is out, then Alder Lake.

g67575 · 21 Feb 2021 at 00:46

I'd be more interested in Alderlake if the enhanced SuperFin 10nm process actually improved the transistor density, from the original Intel 10nm in 2019. Still, if it if does release this year, I may be tempted to build a new system, if they can offer a cheap B series chipset and CPU combo.

Rocket lake is gonna be a very short lived CPU generation, if Alderlake releases this year - considering Rocket lake needs a new motherboard + chipset (unless upgrading on an expensive H470 or Z490), it's looking like a bad option in terms of value.

I'm unsure if the Warhol generation actually exists - If it doesn't release this year, I can't see how it would fit into AMD's lineup. I think this codenames are often made up tbh, or based on early speculation or designs that aren't taken up.

My best guess would be, that Warhol may release alongside Genoa (4th gen), if so, they could share a lot of features. It looks doubtful though, AMD is going to release Milan (3rd gen, Zen 3) server CPUs soon, they previewed them at CES in January 2021, slide here:

A simple refresh of Zen 3 is probably what AMD will release this year, maybe based on the N6 fab. process.

Stu · 21 Feb 2021 at 11:31

FoxEye said:
If they do release a new CPU gen this year (personally, I doubt it), it will probably push prices even higher.

AMD aiming for the skies now with their pricing. You want more perf? You pay more money! Expect 6 cores that start at £350 and 8-cores in the £500 range.

Lisa Su gonna milk you dry, boy.

Looking at price trends over the past couple of years, I don't think you're ever going to buy another new cpu