Woman injured as feminists and transgender groups fight at Speakers’ Corner

[Xelene]

I am a transwoman, I dont particularly like this branch of feminism and I dont condone violent activism either. Both sides are idiots IMO. On the sports side, I was around 15% less effective at cycling and running when I settled into testosterone blockers and took Estrogen. That's pretty much in line with every other woman.

 

[dowie]

I am a transwoman, I dont particularly like this branch of feminism and I dont condone violent activism either. Both sides are idiots IMO. On the sports side, I was around 15% less effective at cycling and running when I settled into testosterone blockers and took Estrogen. That's pretty much in line with every other woman.

I guess the issues with sports can vary - for example a trans female MMA fighter is perhaps more of an issue due to the bone structure/density built up over years even if they're now currently on hormones for example.

Likewise in sports where height is a significant advantage the distribution of height of trans females is going to shift to the right a bit relative to the distribution for regular females

I can understand why you wouldn't like this branch of feminism as some people within it probably do have straight up bigoted views re: trans people. Others I'm not so sure of, while they don't personally accept trans women to be women they also don't seem to harbour hatred but just disagree on the classification and do have some issues relating to that which have some validity re: women shelters, rape support groups where the presence of a biological male could cause issues.

 

[TallPaul1878]

I am a transwoman, I dont particularly like this branch of feminism and I dont condone violent activism either. Both sides are idiots IMO. On the sports side, I was around 15% less effective at cycling and running when I settled into testosterone blockers and took Estrogen. That's pretty much in line with every other woman.

Testo blockers do such a "good job" that trans women usually test with less testosterone than their biologically female counterparts. That includes loss of muscle mass AND bone density. After 1 year of therapy it is considered a moot point. The International Olympic Committee require 2 years minimum of hormone therapy post op before being allowed to compete.

I've yet to see trans women dominate in women's sports on any scale. It's a non issue.

Ironic that in a professional CrossFit competition a trans woman was disqualified from the women's events in a sport that is NOTORIOUS for performance enhancing drug abuse by women. Literally women jabbing up on steroids with more testosterone floating about their bodies than a bull shark. Gravel voices and shovel hands all over the place.

 

[dowie]

That includes loss of muscle mass AND bone density. After 1 year of therapy it is considered a moot point.

I reckon the female opponents of Fallon Fox would beg to differ:

 

[mmj_uk]

Even if they don't 'dominate' now you have a situation where males who aren't able to compete in the mens sport can become trans and be very competitive in the womens sport, I wouldn't underestimate the lengths people will go through to be successful, rich and famous especially when you have this cultural movement that exhaults LGBT/minorities over 'normal' people. It seems to me a bit like boxing divisions, where if you aren't good enough in one weight division you can just drop down to an easier one without actually losing any weight yourself, you might have much lower testosterone levels but at the same time so do your competitors and to add to that they are physically weaker than the males in the corresponding mens sport that you've faced before.

Males who transition to females will take over womens sport just because there are a lot more bang average males who failed at mens sport than there are exceptional (in terms of reaching the pinnacle of womens sport) women, by contrast I would predict that women who transition to men will be nowhere in the mens sport if it's at all physically demanding.

 

[Tefal]

I reckon the female opponents of Fallon Fox would beg to differ:

is Fallon fox on t blockers?

and does if have the same rules as the Olympics regarding 2 years treatment.

 

[Tefal]

Even if they don't 'dominate' now you have a situation where males who aren't able to compete in the mens sport can become trans and be very competitive in the womens sport,

seriously...

so that's what a few dozen people out of hundreds of millions?


sport is such a hilariously tiny thing to even make it an issue is pointless

 

[TallPaul1878]

Fallon Fox never fought at the top of the sport and was handily beaten by Ashlee Evans-Smith by TKO not submission.

Against the very best women that UFC has to offer Fallon Fox would have been beaten over and over again. Her professional career was just 6 fights.

There is a huge gulf in ability amongst sports people in the semi-pro category. Just below the elite tiers there are people who are practically as good as the elites and others who are miles away from being good enough, you are bound to see upsets and mismatches. You see it in all male boxing where a novice pro fighter is blasting seasoned pros out of the ring on their way to stardom.

Fallon Fox is not an example of a transgendered person dominating natural biological women in their chosen sport.

 

[b0redj0rd]

Whether competition at the highest level can beat 'her' is not relevant. What is relevant is whether she has an advantage over an actual female or not.

 

[Caracus2k]

seriously...

so that's what a few dozen people out of hundreds of millions?


sport is such a hilariously tiny thing to even make it an issue is pointless

I really don't get what's so hard to understand. When your talking about elite athletes your talking about 'few dozen people out of hundreds of millions'.

You either decide that sex segregation in sports is a good idea or not......

(personally I don't care much either way but it would be funny it they did remove sex segregation as it would instantly end the BS about certain women sports stars being paid 'less' then the men 'competing at the same level' as those women would almost universally have no chance of competing at a top level)

If you think that sex segregation in sport is a good idea (and the only real reason for sex segregation is to allow women a chance to compete at a high level) then it follows that only women and by that I mean fully biological women should be allowed to compete.

It's got so silly with some sporting bodies that a person with a penis can compete in female sports just as long as they take sufficient female hormones and get their testestorone down... Im a 6'01 200+ pound man...(hardly an extreme outlier for my sex and ethnic origin) Give me female hormones and sure you will weaken my athletic ability but enough to completely nullify the average gains over cis women from my body developing male, with a much larger, than the female average, bone structure. With a height that would put me in a extremely high percentile for cis women (but not for cis men?)...... Get real... Sure I'm not going to beating any female elite athletes any time soon.... But the same distinctions would apply across the spectrum of biologically male bodies.

If someone can point me to some research that demonstrates that trans women at the highest extreme ends of their respective relevant distrubutuons retain no average advantage over cis women in the same extreme percentile then I would have course be willing to change my view...

To clarify what this evidence I am talking about.... It would need to be a study of an extreme percentile of both groups.... Something like the top 0.1% of both cis and trans women. On average, in that extreme percentile, do trans women have a performance difference to the cis women? Of course such a study would be difficult in any case given the problems of obtaining a suitably large, representative group of trans women... But that's the sort of evidence that would be sufficient to allow me to reconsider.

A trans woman is not a biological woman this is an empirical and practical fact.

I support the right for a trans person to live in their preferred gender identify but this doesn't mean that I believe or should be compelled to say that a trans woman is the same as a (biological) woman because 1) its not true and 2) I believe its part of a wider Marxist ploy to undermine the ability of people to state the truth..... Read 1984 if you wish to learn where the impulse to control the usage and development of words comes from in totalitarian ideologies. People may think I'm a crackpot conspiracy theorist but I'm sorry there is a clear, large Venn diagram style overlap between Marxists/ Marxist theory and 'Trans' activists (much like there is for all eco and social justice types)

a recent case in point..... an authoritarian (no free speech for people I don't agree with), Marxist trans activist

You can say that Sport is such a 'tiny' thing to be worried about but its clear that such issues are the thin edge of a wedge being pushed hard by a certain lobby and they are not going to stop because the very continuing existence of Marxism revolves around the same blueprint......

1) identify a disparity of outcome in a group
2) Class those appearing to be doing better in this group as the oppressors (The bourgeoisie in classical Marxism)
3) Class the rest as the oppressed, whether or not this is actually the case. (The proletariat in classical Marxism)
4) Tell the 'oppressed' that they are where they are because of the oppressors (whether this is true or not)
5) Agitate for the 'oppressed' to rise up against the 'oppressors' and in doing so 'destroy the system' (Marxists love to talk about 'systems' be it 'capitalism', 'white privilege, 'cis privilege', the 'patriarchy' etc as without a 'system there's nothing for them to tear down)

Of course by agitating for this you tacitly if not expressly support the use of actual violence to 'overthrow the system' - hence seeing behaviour like that discussed in this thread

..........The old 'punch a Nazi' trope where there appears to be an ever expanding definition of what constitutes a 'Nazi' (some people commenting earlier in this thread should really think hard about their comments excusing (political) violence - your know who you are...) By this ridiculous system the likes of Ben Shapiro (a Jew) get to be labelled as Nazi's!

6) When the destruction of 'the system' actually causes pretty much all people in it (perhaps excluding the leadership) to suffer more than they were collectively before they started start making excuses (it wasn't 'real socialism' etc...)
7 Rinse and repeat

By this method previously 'oppressed' classes can find themselves now the 'oppressors' in the victim hierarchy / caste system that this thinking produces hence a group of (biological) women (feminists) being attacked for being 'trans exclusionary' or 'transphobic'

 

[mmj_uk]

A good example of the whole thing is Lauren Hubbard in weightlifting, born a male, set some youth records in youth weightlifting which have since been beat, apparently never made it in mens professional weightlifting but then transitioned to a woman in his mid 30's and is now destroying the womens field by 20KG and angering them all.

For me it comes back to the question that if it's fair then why don't women who transition to men have the same success in mens sport? you only ever see trans men competing in womens sports.

 

[Caracus2k]

A good example of the whole thing is Lauren Hubbard in weightlifting, born a male, set some youth records in youth weightlifting which have since been beat, apparently never made it in mens professional weightlifting but then transitioned to a woman in his mid 30's and is now destroying the womens field by 20KG and angering them all.

For me it comes back to the question that if it's fair then why don't women who transition to men have the same success in mens sport? you only ever see trans men competing in womens sports.

Even the IOC tacitly admit that there is no competition advantage to being a trans man in a cis male environment.....

'female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”.'Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.'

As you correctly state the presence of a consumerate amount of cis men in elite, competituve sports would also be good evidence to support that being trans confers no 'legacy' biological sex based advantage (or disadvantage)...

 

[Tefal]

I really don't get what's so hard to understand. When your talking about elite athletes your talking about 'few dozen people out of hundreds of millions'.

sure but people are using elite athletes to try and justify policy choices for the average person.

 

[Tefal]

For me it comes back to the question that if it's fair then why don't women who transition to men have the same success in mens sport? you only ever see trans men competing in womens sports.

because an FTM would be banned for doping as they will be taking very high testosterone injections.

 

[dowie]

Even the IOC tacitly admit that there is no competition advantage to being a trans man in a cis male environment.....

'female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”.'Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.'

As you correctly state the presence of a consumerate amount of cis men in elite, competituve sports would also be good evidence to support that being trans confers no 'legacy' biological sex based advantage (or disadvantage)...

It is basically a bit of a fudge/compromise - they want to be inclusive so they had to do "something" but a couple of decades growing up as a man is still going to confer some advantages

sure but people are using elite athletes to try and justify policy choices for the average person.

not in here per say, no one has cited elite athletes as justification for general policy choices outside the scope of sport - it was brought up to highlight an area where there can be a valid position/view to not treat trans women as being completely the same as biological women

other examples being certain legitimate 'safe spaces' such as access to women's shelters or rape support groups etc.. where the presence of a 'man' or at least someone with a penis could be seen as problematic - these are issues that these feminists highlight... aside from that it is just an argument over a label/identity

 

[Caracus2k]

sure but people are using elite athletes to try and justify policy choices for the average person.

As dowie states this is just an example given as to why, universally, trans and cis people should not be treated as the same...

I maintain that where a legitimate, sex based, discriminatiom is in place then it may be appropriate to refuse to accept a person's gender identity over their biological sex if the usage of their preferred gender identity would be counter to the aims of the sex discrimination in the fist place. Each case may need to be individually assessed but I say there should be no universal right to have your preferred gender identity or (lack thereof) used as the basis for sexual based discrimination over your biological sex where such legitimate discrimation exists.


On the female to male trans people in elite sport question the best example I could find was a f2m basketball player at us college level...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kye_Allums

 

[Xelene]

The trans people in elite sport thing is not the most pressing issue of the day...

I understand where some branches of feminism are coming from, especially towards people like myself that had many years of male privilege. I get that. If someone has had a feminine experience since a young age, then I don't think that distinction is fair & borders on transphobia. Domestic Abuse & Rape are not experiences limited to people with one specific configuration of Chromosomes.

Anyway, people should just live and let live. Going to rallies explicitly denying the rights of others, and punching people for attending those rallies are both out of order.

 

[dowie]

If someone has had a feminine experience since a young age, then I don't think that distinction is fair & borders on transphobia. Domestic Abuse & Rape are not experiences limited to people with one specific configuration of Chromosomes.

sure, trans people can be victims of rape, men can be victims of rape etc.. ditto to domestic violence. No one has claimed otherwise - the point raised was just that for say a woman shelter or for a rape counselling meeting aimed at women then someone with a penis who identifies as female might be excluded just as a man might be. That isn't denying that they can't also be victims but simply that the female victims have specifically isolated themselves to be with other women only.

Anyway, people should just live and let live. Going to rallies explicitly denying the rights of others, and punching people for attending those rallies are both out of order.

it wasn't a rally AFAIK and they're not denying the rights of others, they were meeting up in order to travel to a meeting point in order to have a meeting (as convoluted as that sounds) because the eventual meeting venue had to be kept secret as a result of the previous meeting venue having to cancel the event after having received threats from the trans group. It is the trans group that pursued them and the trans group that used violence.

 

[FoxEye]

Going back to the OP which isn't necessarily just about sport...

I have a big issue with the trans activists who say M2F trans people shouldn't have to tell any prospective partner that they used to be a male.

Let's face it, it's not (by a long shot) just feminists that don't accept trans women as indistinguishable from born women. The vast majority of honest men on this very forum wouldn't form a sexual partnership with a trans woman, I'm guessing.

So the concept of "trans rights" including the right to hide their transition from sexual partners is incredibly difficult to swallow. In fact it's cropped up in previous threads.

But it's a big thing that many trans rights advocates are demanding society accept. They call it "stealth".

 

[Muzza1875]

people like myself that had many years of male privilege.

I really can't take anyone serious when they throw around terms like male or white privilege.